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Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.

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Bitcoin ETF's. Thoughts?

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  • edited December 2024
    I’m buying tulips.
  • hank said:

    I’m buying tulips.

    BigBulb, a new coin..

  • I accidentally snorted out whisky at reading half of these ... I was only trying to find the quote that no one has yet devised, concocted, imagined, or plausibly advocated a use case

    https://www.cryptoaltruism.org/blog/15-quotes-about-the-potential-of-blockchain-and-crypto

    efficiency! math!

    andreesen sounds like he is talking about full-faith / -credit currency

    Unbelievable set of quotes (are they real?) Well, all I can say is:
    Song: Happy Days Are Here Again
    Lyrics: Jack Yellen(1) (4) (5)

    Music: Milton Ager(2) (4) (5)
    Year: 1929(3) (5)
    Genre: Popular
    Country: USA


    Happy days are here again!
    The skies above are clear again,
    Let us sing a song of cheer again,
    Happy days are here again!

    Altogether shout it now,
    There's no one who can doubt it now,
    Let us tell the world about it now,
    Happy days are here again!

    Your cares and troubles are gone
    There'll be no more from now on!
    This song was originally posted on protestsonglyrics.net
    Happy days are here again!
    The skies above are clear again
    Let us sing a song of cheer again
    Happy days are here again!

    So long sad times, go long bad times,
    We are rid of you at last;
    Howdy gay times, cloudy gray times
    You are now a thing of the past.

    Happy days are here again!
    The skies above are clear again
    Let us sing a song of cheer again
    Happy days are here again!
    This song was originally posted on protestsonglyrics.net
    Your cares and troubles are gone
    There'll be no more from now on!

    Happy days are here again!
    The skies above are clear again
    Let us sing a song of cheer again
    Happy days are here again!

    Happy Days are Here Again Lyrics
  • edited December 2024
    Soon maybe the Bored Ape NFT's will be back. Sold for millions now worth 50-70k if you can even figure it out. A 90% decline since mid 2022 from what I can find. OUCH!! I'll waste spend my money on cars, women and beer.
  • edited December 2024
    While I was reading about the Comptroller of the Currency last night I was reminded of the history of wildcat banking. I was then reminded of bitcoin.

    Thanks to @PRESSmUP, bitcoin, and its imitators, will forever be Tulip coins.
  • edited December 2024
    Not a recommendation but when billionaires on both side of the isle hold Bitcoin, what do we think are the chances Bitcoin will wilt like Tulips?

    Legally making money does not forgive mental frictions. I would not mix moral indignation and legally making money. With all the proven data about harmful nature of TikTok, no one has given up making money off of it.

    I used to invest based on my moral beliefs and thus avoided buying Tobacco stocks, Facebook stock (I still do not have an account there), bitcoin, etc. Then one day it donned me that my moral stance on these is no different from my indignation about high valuation stocks and all those served only to give me an identity (setting me apart from those that buy them), the biggest of all the mental frictions. Now, I own Meta stock, BTC, and ETHE. So, my recommendation is be responsible to yourself and your family (incl do not do anything illegal and avoid anything that creates mental frictions, I.e., strive to be effortless).
  • I accidentally snorted out whisky at reading half of these ... I was only trying to find the quote that no one has yet devised, concocted, imagined, or plausibly advocated a use case

    https://www.cryptoaltruism.org/blog/15-quotes-about-the-potential-of-blockchain-and-crypto

    Bitcoin was designed to be a currency that people could use for trustless transactions—transactions that could be carried out without need for a financial intermediary such as a bank. But transactions in which bitcoin is used to buy or sell goods and services make up only a tiny fraction of the currency’s total trading volume, most of which is made up of people buying or selling bitcoin itself.
    ...
    [B]itcoin was designed to facilitate decentralized person-to-person transactions, but most bitcoin trading, at least in the West, now takes place on centralized exchanges. Again, in its liberatory promise, bitcoin was supposed to not just be independent of traditional financial institutions and government, but also enable alternatives to them. Yet the big engine of the price boom of the past two years has been bitcoin’s integration into the conventional investment industry (through such vehicles as exchange-traded funds, or ETFs), increased purchases by institutional investors and corporations, and now the prospect of legitimization by the government itself.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/12/how-bitcoin-became-boring/681141/

    image
  • IBIT is at #35 among the top 100 ETFs by AUM. It started just in 01/2024. Surprising that GBTC (with very high ER) is #100.
    https://etfdb.com/compare/market-cap/
  • edited December 2024
  • edited December 2024
    Of the 12 Bitcoin ETFs, both the cheapest ER (BTC - 0.15%) and the most expensive ER (GBTC -1.5%) are from Grayscale (0.25%).

    When IBIT was introduced its ER was 0.12% until Jan 11, 2015 or until $5B in AUM, whichever comes first. Currently $50+B in AUM.

    VanEck's HODL waived fees until Mar. 31, 2025 or first $1.5 billion in fund assets, whichever comes first. Even with the massive run up in Bitcoin price, HODL only has $1.3B in AUM.

    Any reason I should not swap my FBTC (0.25% ER, same as IBIT ER) for BTC? Paying any fees on this asset is a bummer - it is like a negative interest rate, monthly administrative fees on bank accounts, or safe deposit box fees, depending on your disposition.
  • edited December 2024
    Mini-Grayscale BTC (ER 15 bps) now has $3.7 billion AUM and trades an average of 2 million shares/day. That is good enough for retail investors.

    BTC vs the elder GBTC (150 bps) is a liquidity game for Grayscale. So, GBTC has very high ER, but also higher liquidity (but some Bitcoin ETFs have even higher trading volumes - IBIT, FBTC). Surprisingly, BTC trading volume is catching up fast with that of GBTC. But that issue is for institutions that may move $millions.

    Several etf sponsors are playing this liquidity angle by continuing to offer older high ER ETFs and also newer low ER ETFs. In some cases, these "newer" offerings have surpassed the older offerings as is logical.

    IBIT is the new champion - by the AUM, average volume and ER. M*, Yahoo Finance and ETFdb are all showing 12 bps ER - I suppose taking into account waivers and graduated fee schedule - I haven't checked the details recently. So, FBTC to IBIT may be a better switch than to BTC. There may be some TLH involved too.



  • Can anyone tell me how Wisdom Tree's BTC ETF has zero fees? Just starting to look at these at the request of clients who can't hold direct BTC in their accounts.
  • WisdomTree BTCW waived ER for 6 months and the website shows 25 bps now. Other sites haven't updated.
    https://www.wisdomtree.com/investments/etfs/crypto/btcw

    Largest are IBIT and FBTC.
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