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Dishwasher & Cars - Overdoing "Efficiency"

edited June 2023 in Off-Topic
We had to replace the dishwasher.

Old - GE Profile (now Haier). Years old and was still working, but got damaged when being pulled out for something else.
New - Whirlpool. BTW, if one randomly picked other brands, very likely, it is still a Whirlpool (Amana, Jenn-Air, KitchenAid, Maytag, Whirlpool, etc etc). This is known in marketing as the P&G soap-trick - pick whatever soap brand, it is likely to be still P&G.

We get appliances with middle-level feature, neither top/bottom of the line.

What surprised us was that in the name of "energy/water efficiency" and "progress":
1. The new "Normal" is 3-5 hour cycle plus 30-45 min added for Heated/Extended Dry.
2. Old "Normal" looks like "Quick Wash" now, 1-hr cycle plus 30-45 min for Heated/Extended Dry.
3. Wife complained about dishes not fully dry after the cycle completion. On web search, I found 2 tricks - (a) Use "Temp Boost" and/or "Extended Dry" (there goes any energy efficiency), (b) Leave door slightly ajar for better air circulation after cycle completion (a definitely low-tech solution; shouldn't its normal circulation vent do this? Also read that some top of the line models now leave the door slightly ajar when the cycle ends and people pay up for that kind of low-tech becoming high-tech).

All dishwasher federal ratings are based on this awful new "Normal", so that forces competitive compliance by all.

We typically don't leave the house for errands if some appliances are running, so we may just use less efficient "Quick Wash". If snowbound at home in Winter (this is Chicago area after all!), we may try the new "Normal" cycle that seeming would take forever.

End of the rant, but hopefully, also some useful info if one is in the market for a new dishwasher.

Comments

  • Maybe this should have been posted in the nearby "Scammed" thread...
  • Funny.

    But we sort of feel scammed by the "system". We paid more for slower operating dishwasher that ends with wetter-dishes because the Fed's requirements for low power and water use for its efficiency labels. I read lot of new guides for modern dishwashers and they all say that this is for our good, to save energy and water.

    One area of complaint I missed. The dishwasher guide/manual was generic and it mention this-if-you have-that-feature without clarifying if my model had those features. I like owner's guides/manuals to be model specific - it's OK to have a guide that covers several models when there is a table of models with distinguishing features. But I had to manually check/test my Whirlpool dishwasher to see if I have some of the features - I had some, but not others.

    This push for efficiency is found in other areas too.

    Look at cars.

    Poor modern cars these days have to warm up at slower idle speeds, and run on overdrive all the time (not just on the highways as in the old days). Many cars (especially Ford's small engines) now have problem of water accumulation (condensation) in the crankcase because the cars don't get fully warmed up in short trips; some times even batteries are not fully charged back in Winters. Well, oil and water don't mix well, and after a while, there are serious engine problems.

    The old "Normal" driving mode is now the "Sports" mode in most cars, and the new "Normal" is a sluggish and underpower experience.

    Let the poor thing get properly warmed up first - about 5 min in Summer, 15-20 min in Winter.

    So, I bypass all this mandated nonsense. My CRV has an overdrive knockout switch with some ignition-timing manipulation for what goes for its Sport-S mode, and my RDX has a Sport-S mode that just doesn't go into the overdrive gears. I use these Sport-S modes for faster warmups and when the coolant temp indicator is normal, I switch back to new "Normal" efficient mode.

    Of course, I could pay 3x-5x for real sporty experience, but I like my cars for their transportation utility functions.
  • Let me add this kicker to dishwasher episode. "We do it every night like clockwork !!"
    I'd say we, the two of us, run the dishwasher every 2 or 3 days.
  • I have not bought a dishwasher in some 15 years, so I may be out of the loop. Bosch, and other European brands, did not have a built in garbage disposer or heated drying, these being American features as I understood it. You are right about the innards of just about every American appliance, they are all Whirlpools. The temperature of the hot water is more than adequate to dry any size load of dishes in our Bosch, with a regular cycle running about 100 minutes. I suspect, as with clothes washers, that the new-fangled devices have become so complicated that performance suffers. A local appliance repair guy we used gave up his business because he could no longer repair the appliances; he said the only thing he could do was replace the entire electronic brain of the unit, regardless of the diagnosis.
  • edited June 2023
    I am sure that the new Bosch models in the US have competitive Energy Star ratings, 1-hr quick wash, longer normal wash, heated dry, etc (the built-in garbage disposal may be only a plastics cutter to shred soft solids). I glanced through some Bosch literature and the US Energy Star Ratings are featured prominently in its PR. https://www.bosch-home.com/us/products/dishwashers/24inchdishwashers

    FWIW, Whirlpool also has several European models that should be competitive for the European markets.

    My point is that if your old dishwasher is more than 10 years old, its replacement will surprise you.

    The US tastes are definitely different. 2 examples from cars:

    When the first Japanese pickup trucks hit the US market decades ago, they were seen as flimsy, not sturdy. The US pickup trucks had the appearance of being bulky, hefty, and the inference drawn was that they had more power and could more load. One can hardly differentiate between the US and Japanese (or other foreign origin) pickup trucks.

    When the first European luxury cars hit the US market, the European manufacturers were puzzled that the US showroom visitors cared only for how many cupholders that had (not very many) and didn't bother much with mechanical features. They then did consumer studies/surveys in the US and made adjustments. Now the US and European luxury cars in the US market are almost indistinguishable.

    Even Rolls Royce had to make adjustments because its headlights were rules underpowers (not bright enough) for the US market.

    In general, rarely a product in one market is sold as-is in another market, especially in the US market that may even account for majority of manufactures' sales.

    I am also changing the title of this thread to better reflect contents: Dishwasher & Cars - Overdoing "Efficiency"
  • I have a 15-20 yr old Maytag dishwasher that's never been used to date. (It was installed along with a stove and refrigerator.) It's become more of a junk drawer than anything, makes my kids laugh. I prefer to wash dishes by hand and despite all the ads to the contrary I use far less electricity and water than the dishwasher.

    Because of all this "Efficiency" I almost dread ever having to replace my 2009 Silverado.
  • "I prefer to wash dishes by hand and despite all the ads to the contrary I use far less electricity and water than the dishwasher."

    "Because of all this "Efficiency" I almost dread ever having to replace my 2009 Silverado."



    I prefer to wash dishes by hand and despite all the ads to the contrary I use far less electricity and water than the dishwasher. Over the years my wife and I have had many heated discussions about exactly this. I've never used the dishwasher; sometimes many of our dishes are missing in action because she has them stacked in the damned thing "waiting for a full load".

    Because of all this "Efficiency", and having absolutely no desire to confront an unfriendly array of electronic gadgetry I really do dread ever having to replace my 2009 Toyota Tacoma V6.

  • @Old_Joe : I concur with you. 2005 Camry 270K miles. One minor exhaust repair, one water pump, one battery purchase,one set of plugs, & a few tires !! Brakes haven't been touched. All offers considered.
    Derf
  • @Derf: your Camry experience shows me that cars really have improved in this century. I sold a 2007 Honda Odyssey at 113,000 miles with its original brake pads and rotors. Unfortunately later model Odysseys are equipped with thinner brake rotors to save weight; they can wear unevenly and/or warp. Not progress in my book. I believe I just heard that the average age of cars on American roads is now 12+ years.
  • edited June 2023
    Whirlpool Dishwasher Update

    After running some different cycles, it's OK.

    Quick 1 hr
    Normal 1.5 hrs

    Heated Dry adds 45-55 min.

    Only to remember wiping some surfaces at the cycle end to assist in drying, AND leaving the door slightly ajar after all done.

    Not bad!

    Those long times that I indicated in the OP were really for Sensor/Auto-cycle in top of the line Whirlpool models where an optical sensor determines how dirty dishes are and fairly dirty dishes were assumed for 3-5 hr cycle PLUS 30-45 min Heated Dry. BUT none of that applies to my middle-features model.

    It's basically a BAD and GENERIC guide/manual that isn't model specific and leaves the user testing all this.

    If I get a product survey later, will be sure to respond and mention my experience.
  • Probably hired neutered Martians to put together the manual.
  • Man, this opens a whole bag of important questions. What are the correct "personal pronouns" for neutered Martians? Should they be considered as part of the "trans" community? If they engage in competitive sports who exactly should they play against?
  • edited June 2023
    The vast majority of Martians (neutered or not) use they/them as their "personal pronouns."
    All Martians should be considered part of the interstellar community.
    When neutered Martians participate in competitive sports, their opponents often have
    similar ages (+/- 30 "Mars years") and body weights (+/- 25 kg*).
    Neutered Martians frequently play alongside the unneutered on the same teams and in the same leagues.


    * It's a little-known fact that Martians developed the metric system in 1789.
    They graciously shared this important advancement with the French several years later.
    However, it wasn't until 1875 that the International Bureau of Weights and Measures
    was established and The Treaty of the Metre was signed in Paris.
  • @yogibearbull: I admire your work from which all the members here benefit. I also wonder how you get all these data and links out so well and so quickly. The answer may lie in your experience with your new dishwasher. From my reading of your tale I concluded that you are more competent than the rest of us because you read the user’s manual prior to turning the device on!! What a novel idea! I plead guilty to having bought more than one fund without reading the prospectus, which may explain some instances of buyer regret. Glad you are happy with your clean dishes.
  • edited June 2023
    @Old_Joe. @Observant1

    I confess complete ignorance. But now I know, thanks to you both! Yet... "they/them" specifies plural rather than singular, but not a precise number. If a neutered Martian is portraying Richard III in the Shakespeare classic, and he is seeking an animal of the equine variety, would he offer THEIR kingdoms for a horse?
    .....And now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
  • edited June 2023
    .
    BenWP said:

    @yogibearbull: I admire your work from which all the members here benefit. I also wonder how you get all these data and links out so well and so quickly. The answer may lie in your experience with your new dishwasher. From my reading of your tale I concluded that you are more competent than the rest of us because you read the user’s manual prior to turning the device on!! What a novel idea!

    Yes. Yogi’s always one-step ahead. He must see Barrons’ articles dancing overhead in his sleep. I can never beat him to a good story or cover. Users’ manuals drive me nuts. Almost never look.
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