The Dumbing Down Of A College Education

Ted

FYI: The University of Chicago will no longer require ACT or SAT scores from U.S. students, sending a jolt through elite institutions of higher education as it becomes the first top-10 research university to join the test-optional movement.

Numerous schools, including well-known liberal arts colleges, have dropped or pared back testing mandates in recent years to bolster recruiting in a crowded market. But the announcement Thursday by the university was a watershed, cracking what had been a solid and enduring wall of support for the primary admission tests among the two dozen most prestigious research universities.
Regards,
Ted
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-university-chicago-sat-act-20180614-story.html

jlev

Disagree with the title given the article content.

Old_Joe

@jlev- Pay no attention... just typical right-wing reactionary interpretation.

jlev

@Old_Joe be civil

Old_Joe

@jlev- I'm always curious to understand why an obviously misleading comment such as Ted's is regarded as civil, when an accurate and responsive comment is not. Seems kind of one-sided.

davidrmoran

What kind of misleading comment? He's just quoting the article lede, as he usually does.

Old_Joe

@davidrmoran- Where, exactly, does the article refer to "The Dumbing Down Of A College Education"?

davidrmoran

ah, sorry, point taken, was thinking comment, not his own-creation hed

apologies, duh and d'oh!

Ted

@MFO Members: The biggest absurdity is that a four-year college degree has become the only gateway into the American middle class.

But not every young person is suited to four years of college. They may be bright and ambitious but they won’t get much out of it. They’d rather be doing something else, like making money or painting murals.

They feel compelled to go to college because they’ve been told over and over that a college degree is necessary.
Regards,
Ted

Old_Joe

@Ted: 100% agreement on that one!

rforno

I actually agree 110% with Ted on something. Has Hades frozen over yet?

I've seen more stories about young people following in their parent's footsteps in the skilled trades -- plumbers, electricians, and so forth. They cite great money, good hours, they LOVE what they do, and for them that's all that matters. So why force them into a 4-year degree for no reason? Speaking as someone who's a professor in their 'second career' after leaving industry, I say good for them.

Ted said:

@MFO Members: The biggest absurdity is that a four-year college degree has become the only gateway into the American middle class.

But not every young person is suited to four years of college. They may be bright and ambitious but they won’t get much out of it. They’d rather be doing something else, like making money or painting murals.

They feel compelled to go to college because they’ve been told over and over that a college degree is necessary.
Regards,
Ted

davidrmoran

Trades can be a great choice, but "They’d rather be doing something else, like making money or painting murals" is completely idealistic in its own way; the data show that again and again. Voke and community college education is key, but for every HS grad who makes it big in anything, the vast sea of peers is at a major and nearly permanent financial disadvantage without a degree.

Old_Joe

I'm going to give Ted a little slack on this one. Not sure that he meant that exactly and literally. I think that he was simply recognizing that trades are both necessary and potentially lucrative, and acknowledging that some would put doing what they enjoy above making lots of money.

davidrmoran

Still, has nothing to do w/ any dumbing-down of college, in any respect.

Old_Joe

For sure the "Dumbing Down" title is completely bogus. I meant to refer to his later comment "They’d rather be doing something else, like making money or painting murals."

BenWP

As the article states, UC is one of quite a few selective colleges and universities to make standardized test scores a requirement for application for admission. As UC now admits only 7% of its applicants, no admission policy change that university makes will result in any "dumbing down." I know of no evidence that requiring or not requiring test scores results in a lowering of standards. IMHO, making kids perform on SAT and ACT tests tells an evaluator how well kids perform on tests, but not very much about future performance. Our educational culture has become "test happy." The constant evaluation and assessment of students at all levels as probably done more to detract from learning than any other "innovation." "No Child Left Behind" resulted, as I see it, in far more children being left behind than ever before. Obama and Duncan made things worse. The actions of the current Secretary of Education defy rational explanation.

jlev

@Old_Joe i was mainly responding to the word reactionary. And trades remain a very good track for lucrative employment in tree right market.

Ted

@MFO Members: Don't forget, the world also needs these too. Not everyone needs to go to college, plus America became great by people working with their hands.
Regards,
Ted

VintageFreak

Here's how a certain section of the world population is interpreting this. It's designed to keep them out of good universities. If you don't "test well" now you have equal opportunity to get into universities than those who do.

Make America great again.

jlev

Alternately, I used to run 6 week ACT prep after school programs. The average test improvement was 4 points (out of 36). Minimal actual learning was transferred, yet scores improved significantly in short periods of time. So it's fair to ask what was measured by testing well.

hank

The caption alone is so simplistic here that it’s not worth further thought.

Of course, to some things were always better in “the old days”. (I guess back before Elvis and Rock & Roll.)

rforno

FWIW saying I graduated HS in 1990 and preferred taking the ACT vs the SAT. The ACT seemed more relevant to what I learned in various subjects -- the SAT was formulaic and didn't really prove 'knowledge' per se.

That said, just as with industry certifications, anyone can pass a test.

hank

jlev said:

Alternately, I used to run 6 week ACT prep after school programs. The average test improvement was 4 points (out of 36). Minimal actual learning was transferred, yet scores improved significantly in short periods of time. So it's fair to ask what was measured by testing well.

Test taking is a skill in itself. I wouldn’t discount its importance to one’s survival.

My 2-cents worth re: secondary education ... It’s probably true that math and certain language skills tested higher in the 50s and 60s (Those “good old days” when there existed two different pay scales depending on a teacher’s gender).

What the comparisons often miss, I think, is how many other things schools are called upon to instruct today. Things like substance abuse education, sex education, intercultural acceptance and understanding, personal finance, computer literacy and (sadly) “live-fire” survival skills. Yikes! Kids today know so much more than we did 50 years ago.

davidrmoran

Or you can luck out:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/promoted-six-times-and-then-fired-the-inside-story-of-a-political-appointees-wild-ride-in-trumps-washington/2018/06/15/ebf6290a-5eab-11e8-8c93-8cf33c21da8d_story.html

VintageFreak

Test taking is a skill in itself. CHECK!

I have tried without success to explain this to my girls. The problem is the quest of this generation to "find oneself". WTF?!?!?!

I tried to explain to them a TEST comes once in your life. You have ONE chance to do well in it. You have a lifetime to learn. Or just become President. But, who listens to me?

davidrmoran

your girls do

VintageFreak

davidrmoran said:

your girls do

As Phil Collins sings in "I Cannot Believe It's True".

They listen, but they're not hearing me, They are being too cool to be kind.


Ah, but who cares. That's the difference between having boys and girls for a dad. With a boy I would want to imprint my hand under his ear. The girl can spit in my face, but she's still my princess.

My incentive for my younger who'll appear for the SATs next year is a new iPhone. I said if you want a $800 phone, you have to score 800 in some section.

Let's see. And screw you U. of Chicago.

davidrmoran

Oh, they listen and hear you, regardless; you're smart enough to get that, I bet, irrespective of SATs.

My kids (boy and girl, so I don't concur in gender difference view toooo much) got 800s or a bit under in everything, as did I, but except for speed of comprehension and understanding (sometimes!), it makes little difference in much else, certainly in salary.

Old_Joe

Not having had the benefit of a college or university education I wouldn't know about an 800 SAT. But I do enjoy an ~800 credit score. Does that count?

davidrmoran

that too is very good --- in many ways much more important too!

your writing and thinking are a prime example of how to hone the brain without formal higher ed, I must say, not news to you, I'm sure.

hank

“... your writing and thinking are a prime example of how to hone the brain without formal higher ed ...”

Concur with davidmoran

(plus, he might have driven college profs mad)