Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
This chart that shows the increase in college degrees as a function of time is deceptive. It doesn't address some major problems in our educational system.
It is not surprising that our educational years have increased thus leading to more college level degrees. More families can now afford this costly and time demanding expenditure. The change in our work force requirements from brute force industries to information related industries demand a higher education exposure.
But large educational gaps still persist. Minorities are far less likely to graduate from high school much less from college. Within the Los Angeles Unified School District there is a huge disparity in test scores between the wealthy school districts (white dominated) and the poorer (black and Latino dominated) areas.
Also, the usefulness of the degrees is not mentioned. Far too many degrees are now awarded in disciplines that offer little prospects for a healthy lifetime earning. There is a mismatch that students make and parents accept that produces wild summer-break beach parties and poor educational outcomes in terms of National needs. We need more engineers and fewer financial advisors.
Possible causes and potential solutions are many. Parents don't start the education process early enough. Reading and talking to kids before their formal schooling will give them a starting advantage that persists. This is too often missing in single family homes.
It is likely that the teaching profession (female dominated) has fewer highly qualified candidates as the best of the potential female cohort are now welcomed into better paying professions. The system now attracts from the bottom of candidate rather from the top rankings.
A larger fraction of educational funding is allocated to administrative and more peripheral matters then is warranted. More of the funds should be committed to reducing class size and not athletic facilities.
I'm not an expert so I'm sure this list can be greatly expanded. It is also likely controversial. Please contribute. I will listen.
Jokers with Bachelor's degrees are still Jokers. They are actually worse because they also want to get paid more. I am frankly appalled by the "be what you want to be" crowd which enables Universities to cater to individuals running up college debt getting degrees that are totally worthless in the job market.
It remains to be seen how long those degrees help with one's "self esteem" which was numero uno criteria when the degree was awarded.
VF, not all of them. I found many of the new engineering and science graduates I encountered as I reached retirement to be amazing. Talented, self-confident, composed, curious, innovative, dedicated. No different from the top of the previous generations and well worth any amount of investment the country could make in them.
Well, my workplace was such that I tended to meet the new engineers and scientists. I have no reason to think that many others of their generation that pursued different interests can't find something useful and productive to do with their lives. It is the scandalous cost of education, not the education, that is the problem (IMO).
I think David Snowball is contributing to the education of next generation journalists. They have to be better than the current crop.
VF, not all of them. I found many of the new engineering and science graduates I encountered as I reached retirement to be amazing. Talented, self-confident, composed, curious, innovative, dedicated. No different from the top of the previous generations and well worth any amount of investment the country could make in them.
I'm obviously not talking about STEM graduates now. I'm talking about those who sit at Starbucks all day pretending to the whole world they are studying while actually listening to iTunes drinking $5 lattes because they want soy milk so $1 extra, running up credit card bills and leave with degree in i-will-not-mention-at-the-risk-of-offending-someone, and then can't pay off student loans they should not have been granted in the first place.
And now, they are saying immigrants are taking their jobs. The freakin' problem is that a lot of these people with useless degrees are still employed because there is no one to fill the job, and not because they are competent OR will ever become competent. We have a serious problem in our country where college degree is automatically assumed as a qualification or certification of intelligence, when it is not.
Why I and my wife went to graduate school under considerable hardship I will never understand. At least I'm the lesser idiot because I didn't get a PhD.
"The freakin' problem is that a lot of these people with useless degrees are still employed because there is no one to fill the job, and not because they are competent OR will ever become competent."
@VintageFreak- But man, they are still employed at Starbucks making those expensive concoctions for the next cohort. Somebody's got to do that stuff!
@Old_Joe. So that's why the barista looks more happy than me, eh? Maybe they are actually rich because they own Starbucks options!
On a more serious note, I have a lot of friend and acquaintances. Their kids want the "college experience" away from their parents. They don't want to go to a school that's in their state. They want to be as far away as possible so their parents cannot show up without warning. It is not as if state schools are not good.
They want their parents pay out of state tuition or they have no issues getting student loans. It is so easy to just ignore the fact tuition is still being paid. They have visions of grandeur about how great they are and how they will make money using whatever godforsaken talent they are "developing" in college. Then they come back and live with their parents whose retirement nest egg is now shot, more because of the expense incurred sending their kids to private/out of state schools and less because of having suffered two 50% down markets.
I'm not painting a made up stereotype here. I wish government didn't grant student loans regardless of what degree is being pursued. Student loans should be granted to incentivize kids into professions where there is a need.
@MJG You noted:"It is not surprising that our educational years have increased thus leading to more college level degrees. More families can now afford this costly and time demanding expenditure."
>>>I might be low on coffee intake this morning; but I don't understand the above portion in bold. My presumption is cost related to college level study is now more affordable than some other previous period. Is this what this statement implies?
I definitely am low on coffee this morning so it's especially unlikely that I'll accurately reproduce my thought process when I wrote the line you referenced. But I will give it an honest shot.
I didn't do any research on this subject whatsoever and was reflecting of my immediate relatives. Both my mom and dad's parents were immigrants to the USA. They were all poor and raised large families. All the children in those families quit school at early ages to earn money for the family. That was not optional; the very dominating male head of the family demanded that action and also a major fraction of the money earned. In my opinion, those circumstances rarely exist today. Our average family wealth is much higher today than it was yesteryear.
Secondly, bank loans were not commonly accessible when I went to college. The pay options were cash and/or scholarships. Today, bankers provide a third option in terms of a long term loan.
Thank you for reading my post and for so deeply thinking about my specific comments. I'm gratified that you consider my submittals worthy of such scrutiny.
Sorry if my reply to your question is so shallow, so personal, and so lacking in hard data. I really responded to the article emotionally in real time.
EDIT with ADDITIONAL THOUGHT: I said I reacted emotionally, and I meant it. Today, the TV news covers the ubiquitous beer beach party celebrations at college summer recess. I greatly dislike these wasteful, shameful and especially costly displays by our college students which have increased in bad behavior over time. During our college days, both my wife and I returned home to full time work. We needed the money and abstained from accumulating a hefty loan commitment. Controlling costs back in those days was good practice, and it still is, particularly when investing.
I confess I have read only part of what's already been contributed, above. Education is expected to get students ready to take jobs. Students "major" (verb) in what they enjoy, or maybe it's a trade-off between what they enjoy AND find useful, i.e., helpful in finding a job. There is an aspect to all of this which is ALWAYS, 100% of the time, ignored: that education should EDIFY us, make us smarter, more human, better PEOPLE, with an open-mindedness which the student did not possess, before. It's no secret why most pastors (I'm retired from that profession, or vocation) are liberal, and most of the people who are members of (many) churches self-identify as conservative. The difference is: seminary. A scientific study was done about this very thing, many years ago, in the PC(USA.) My assertion is based upon that particular study, conducted by the denomination's research-arm, the Presbyterian Panel.
...This is why I'm fond of making the distinction between EDUCATION and (mere) TRAINING. They are not the same thing. If I were to engage in hyperbole in order to make the point, I'd say this: humans ought to be educated. Monkeys can be trained.
Needless to say, those who are able to TRAVEL, whether or not they own academic degrees, are learning valuable lessons, wherever they go. Things are not all the same, everywhere. Some folks find New Englanders a bit weird. As for me, I was once amused and surprised when I stopped for lunch in Shamrock, TX. I asked if they offered fish and chips. The waitress told me: "I can give you a bag of chips, but don't you want fries with that fish?" Grin.
My understanding is that in order to earn a PhD., one has to in some way, shape or form, contribute NEW KNOWLEDGE to our fund of knowledge as a race of humans. I used to check out the dissertation titles that were posted, when doctoral candidates were scheduled to defend their dissertations. I saw those arcane, esoteric, nutso dissertation titles and said to myself: "Self, don't go there." And so, my occupation as a full-time student came to an end. What a pity. It was fascinating and interesting, particularly once I got beyond the undergrad level, because THEN, you can study only what you ENJOY.
Education unfortunately is viewed as a piece of paper that by itself means something. It is much easier to fool people when your parent's can afford to get you a degree from Yale than from community college. We think all students in Ivy league schools are smart, because we are TOLD they are smart, and just because they graduate from those schools they are the next leaders.
Like I have said before, psychological warfare perpetuated on a hapless population. The irony is the piece of paper which is the degree has more value or is absolutely worthless and totally divorced from the competency of the candidate who has that paper.
As a retired faculty member, my perspective may be at odds with that of other participants here. I don't know K-12, despite having strong opinions,so I'll limit my comments to higher education. I believe our country has succeeded in creating a massive oversupply of degree programs, similar to the effects of the National Defense Education Act that followed on the heels of Sputnik. In the1960's our universities, stimulated by steroids (read federal dollars), showed that they could turn out so many PhDs in record time that by the 1970s many fields of study were saturated. Also following Sputnik, land-grant and mid-level public universities expanded rapidly with no central planning because such a practice is considered "pink." Deserving GI's and a whole generation suddenly saw opportunities to attend college handed out like candy. Like newly-listed growth companies, the metric used to measure success was growth in enrollment, not growth in quality. The miserable 70's brought an end to growth-for-growth's sake, but by then the buildings had been built, faculty hired, and to attract a diminishing supply of students, standards had to be lowered and programs that marginal candidates could succeed in were established. I dare say that a listing of the majors pursued by student athletes today would show academic programs created out of whole cloth and that did not exist when I was an undergrad. Next month I start PT for my shoulder. BION, my therapist, a young woman, has a doctorate in physical therapy without for a moment being a professor or a researcher. The US showed it could arm the Allies in WWII with its industrial might and we showed we could out-produce anyone when it came to providing higher education to consumers of any ability. Nowadays, employers demand a bachelor's degree for menial work because universities engage in a race to the bottom and flood the market with diplomas.
Obviously, the topic pushed my buttons and I apologize to those whom I offended. I love what I taught and my colleagues. Lowering my standards caused me great shame and I tried not to blame the students. The fact of the matter is, no American student having scored 425 on the SAT verbal really stood a chance of learning a foreign language, unless one resorts to the "wine and cheese" standard of performance.
@BenWP Speak YOUR truth, and you did, and that's it.
We are giving out degrees, some people are outright purchasing degrees, and hardly anyone is getting a real education. I say real because I really can't shake the feeling some students are getting lessons that are only turning them into snobs. I will never understand why we have so many different degrees and why there is a "demand" for it from students.
I think it's more about universities adding too many items to the menu in order to project they are offering so many choices for education. Reminds me of ETFs from this company I forgot which not just offered healthcare, biotech, pharmaceutical, medical equipment, etc focused ETFs, but really went into very narrowly focused areas like cardiac research, headache pill, etc. etc. Too much of something does not make it good. It is completely devaluing education.
I love my daughters to death, but they might have to purchase their own MBAs if they think it's going to help them. Executive MBA. Poppycock.
Comments
This chart that shows the increase in college degrees as a function of time is deceptive. It doesn't address some major problems in our educational system.
It is not surprising that our educational years have increased thus leading to more college level degrees. More families can now afford this costly and time demanding expenditure. The change in our work force requirements from brute force industries to information related industries demand a higher education exposure.
But large educational gaps still persist. Minorities are far less likely to graduate from high school much less from college. Within the Los Angeles Unified School District there is a huge disparity in test scores between the wealthy school districts (white dominated) and the poorer (black and Latino dominated) areas.
Also, the usefulness of the degrees is not mentioned. Far too many degrees are now awarded in disciplines that offer little prospects for a healthy lifetime earning. There is a mismatch that students make and parents accept that produces wild summer-break beach parties and poor educational outcomes in terms of National needs. We need more engineers and fewer financial advisors.
Possible causes and potential solutions are many. Parents don't start the education process early enough. Reading and talking to kids before their formal schooling will give them a starting advantage that persists. This is too often missing in single family homes.
It is likely that the teaching profession (female dominated) has fewer highly qualified candidates as the best of the potential female cohort are now welcomed into better paying professions. The system now attracts from the bottom of candidate rather from the top rankings.
A larger fraction of educational funding is allocated to administrative and more peripheral matters then is warranted. More of the funds should be committed to reducing class size and not athletic facilities.
I'm not an expert so I'm sure this list can be greatly expanded. It is also likely controversial. Please contribute. I will listen.
Best Wishes
It remains to be seen how long those degrees help with one's "self esteem" which was numero uno criteria when the degree was awarded.
I think David Snowball is contributing to the education of next generation journalists. They have to be better than the current crop.
And now, they are saying immigrants are taking their jobs. The freakin' problem is that a lot of these people with useless degrees are still employed because there is no one to fill the job, and not because they are competent OR will ever become competent. We have a serious problem in our country where college degree is automatically assumed as a qualification or certification of intelligence, when it is not.
Why I and my wife went to graduate school under considerable hardship I will never understand. At least I'm the lesser idiot because I didn't get a PhD.
Which reminds me I need to start an OT thread...
@VintageFreak- But man, they are still employed at Starbucks making those expensive concoctions for the next cohort. Somebody's got to do that stuff!
On a more serious note, I have a lot of friend and acquaintances. Their kids want the "college experience" away from their parents. They don't want to go to a school that's in their state. They want to be as far away as possible so their parents cannot show up without warning. It is not as if state schools are not good.
They want their parents pay out of state tuition or they have no issues getting student loans. It is so easy to just ignore the fact tuition is still being paid. They have visions of grandeur about how great they are and how they will make money using whatever godforsaken talent they are "developing" in college. Then they come back and live with their parents whose retirement nest egg is now shot, more because of the expense incurred sending their kids to private/out of state schools and less because of having suffered two 50% down markets.
I'm not painting a made up stereotype here. I wish government didn't grant student loans regardless of what degree is being pursued. Student loans should be granted to incentivize kids into professions where there is a need.
Nick de Peyster
Undervalued Stocks
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/u-college-grads-see-slim-040120863.html
You noted:"It is not surprising that our educational years have increased thus leading to more college level degrees. More families can now afford this costly and time demanding expenditure."
>>>I might be low on coffee intake this morning; but I don't understand the above portion in bold. My presumption is cost related to college level study is now more affordable than some other previous period. Is this what this statement implies?
Thank you,
Catch
I definitely am low on coffee this morning so it's especially unlikely that I'll accurately reproduce my thought process when I wrote the line you referenced. But I will give it an honest shot.
I didn't do any research on this subject whatsoever and was reflecting of my immediate relatives. Both my mom and dad's parents were immigrants to the USA. They were all poor and raised large families. All the children in those families quit school at early ages to earn money for the family. That was not optional; the very dominating male head of the family demanded that action and also a major fraction of the money earned. In my opinion, those circumstances rarely exist today. Our average family wealth is much higher today than it was yesteryear.
Secondly, bank loans were not commonly accessible when I went to college. The pay options were cash and/or scholarships. Today, bankers provide a third option in terms of a long term loan.
Thank you for reading my post and for so deeply thinking about my specific comments. I'm gratified that you consider my submittals worthy of such scrutiny.
Sorry if my reply to your question is so shallow, so personal, and so lacking in hard data. I really responded to the article emotionally in real time.
EDIT with ADDITIONAL THOUGHT: I said I reacted emotionally, and I meant it. Today, the TV news covers the ubiquitous beer beach party celebrations at college summer recess. I greatly dislike these wasteful, shameful and especially costly displays by our college students which have increased in bad behavior over time. During our college days, both my wife and I returned home to full time work. We needed the money and abstained from accumulating a hefty loan commitment. Controlling costs back in those days was good practice, and it still is, particularly when investing.
Best Wishes
...This is why I'm fond of making the distinction between EDUCATION and (mere) TRAINING. They are not the same thing. If I were to engage in hyperbole in order to make the point, I'd say this: humans ought to be educated. Monkeys can be trained.
Needless to say, those who are able to TRAVEL, whether or not they own academic degrees, are learning valuable lessons, wherever they go. Things are not all the same, everywhere. Some folks find New Englanders a bit weird. As for me, I was once amused and surprised when I stopped for lunch in Shamrock, TX. I asked if they offered fish and chips. The waitress told me: "I can give you a bag of chips, but don't you want fries with that fish?" Grin.
My understanding is that in order to earn a PhD., one has to in some way, shape or form, contribute NEW KNOWLEDGE to our fund of knowledge as a race of humans. I used to check out the dissertation titles that were posted, when doctoral candidates were scheduled to defend their dissertations. I saw those arcane, esoteric, nutso dissertation titles and said to myself: "Self, don't go there." And so, my occupation as a full-time student came to an end. What a pity. It was fascinating and interesting, particularly once I got beyond the undergrad level, because THEN, you can study only what you ENJOY.
Like I have said before, psychological warfare perpetuated on a hapless population. The irony is the piece of paper which is the degree has more value or is absolutely worthless and totally divorced from the competency of the candidate who has that paper.
Obviously, the topic pushed my buttons and I apologize to those whom I offended. I love what I taught and my colleagues. Lowering my standards caused me great shame and I tried not to blame the students. The fact of the matter is, no American student having scored 425 on the SAT verbal really stood a chance of learning a foreign language, unless one resorts to the "wine and cheese" standard of performance.
We are giving out degrees, some people are outright purchasing degrees, and hardly anyone is getting a real education. I say real because I really can't shake the feeling some students are getting lessons that are only turning them into snobs. I will never understand why we have so many different degrees and why there is a "demand" for it from students.
I think it's more about universities adding too many items to the menu in order to project they are offering so many choices for education. Reminds me of ETFs from this company I forgot which not just offered healthcare, biotech, pharmaceutical, medical equipment, etc focused ETFs, but really went into very narrowly focused areas like cardiac research, headache pill, etc. etc. Too much of something does not make it good. It is completely devaluing education.
I love my daughters to death, but they might have to purchase their own MBAs if they think it's going to help them. Executive MBA. Poppycock.