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DBLTX Vs. DLFNX

I've been looking at both funds to round out my bond portfolio and noticed a few things:

DBLTX seems like a mortgage fund disguised as a total return fund. Essentially, Gundlach must have at least 50% of assets invested in mortgages. Thus far, he's been very successful. What happens when that sector hits the skids?

DFLNX has been slightly less successful with Gundlach at the helm when he spreads out to treasuries and corporates. Again, this fund has a large part dedicated to mortgages, but not as much as Total Return.

Do you consider DBLTX a true "Total Return" bond fund or just a mortgage fund? Also the AUM for DBLTX is enormous compared to DFLNX. Do you think that will hurt performance in the future? It doesn't seem to have been an issue thus far.

Thoughts and input/suggestions?

Thanks.

Comments

  • "Thoughts and input/suggestions?"

    Both are good funds, but I prefer DBLTX because it has a superior year-to-date, 1-year, and 3-year returns, while having a lower Standard Deviation.

    Mona
  • "Total Return" is its name. Yes its a mortgage fund. Its managed "for" total return (i.e. not necessarily to maximize yield at the expense of capital preservation).

    Gundlach was asked to compare/contrast these when they opened the 2 funds. DLFNX has a broader palette of choices (corps, sovereigns, etc). Supposedly, DLFNX provided a (paraphrasing Jeff) a more fuller expression of Doubleline's outlook on various fixed income sectors. Whereas DBLTX (again, paraphrasing) would be a less volatile fund which would focus on mortgages.

    Keep in mind, Gundlach's history is with mortgages. That was his charge at TCW,when he managed TGLMX. That is where his deepest expertise is. DBLTX (like many bond managers) consciously employs a "barbell" strategy with DBLTX ---owning non-agency (higher yield, higher-risk) paper for income, but also agency paper -- the prices of which often run counter to the non-agency stuff. The former provides "credit" exposure; the latter interest-rate exposure. He then changes the weightings of these based on his assessment of risk vs. price/value. The active changing of the weightings mean that DBLTX, limited though it is, to mortgages, seems to work in most environments -- as well or better than most more diversified "core" bond funds.

    Yes, DLFNX has more options. But more options doesn't necessarily mean better performance. -- Take a look at PAAIX as an example of a fund with essentially unlimited choices, whose performance continually stinks. Or PTTRX, which is the PIMCO fund most analogous to DLFNX. --- DBLTX, "handicapped" as it is by being limited to mortgages, has trounced PTTRX. What DBLTX has demonstrated, is that for a skilled manager, the "handicap" of being limited to mortgages, can in fact be a virtue Too many choices, for many (not all) professional bond managers may have the effect of impairing alpha.

  • A follow-up, Gundlach now also manages ETF "TOTL" and a CEF "DBL". DBL is managed similiar to DBLTX (mostly mortgages). However, because its a CEF, it can leverage-up, and sports a great yield.

    If you can pick up DBL at a discount to NAV, I would expect it to outperform DBLTX over a market cycle.
  • Based on my interpretation of your comments, it seems that Gundlach is good at mortgages but his abilities seems more limited when he ventures into other areas, such as corporates, treasuries, etc. I've noticed that his DLINX is doing pretty well but not as well as DBLTX, either. That is his version of an unconstrained bond fund.
  • Unconstrained bond funds generally seem like a gimmick to me.

    Its easy to market a new sexy "alternative" product --- much harder to deliver consistent results. Its hard enough for the best of managers to make money by 'simple' security selection and asset/sector allocations. -- Much, much harder to do by giving these people too many choices.

    Yet these fund companies know they can market this stuff (yes, I fell for it too, early on). In almost all cases the "conventional core fund" of these fund sponsors has beaten the "unconstrained" offering. More choices effectively means TOO MANY choices for the "professional managers" to handle.

    I will again offer as Exhibit A, PAAIX -- "unconstrained" is not in the fund's name, but certainly it is "unconstrained" in its ability to go anywhere, and short assets. The manager is very articulate, his company sponsor (Pimco) has immense organizational resources. --- How is that working out? Ditto SUBFX, and PFIUX, etc. etc.

    For investors who want an alternative to stocks AND bonds, I suggest holding some cash.
  • edited October 2015
    I own DLFNX since Sept, 2012. $50 BILLION AUM in DBLTX. That fund oughta be closed. With so much in there, he's driving the market, not investing in it. $50B is nuts. This thread caused me to look once again at the portfolio. DLFNX is 47% in AAA-rated stuff. If I was aiming for a not very risky solid, reliable, tame fund, I guess I found it.
    Signed,
    ----The MFO resident Rank Amateur.
  • Crash said:

    I own DLFNX since Sept, 2012. $50 BILLION AUM in DBLTX. That fund oughta be closed. With so much in there, he's driving the market, not investing in it. $50B is nuts. This thread caused me to look once again at the portfolio. DLFNX is 47% in AAA-rated stuff. If I was aiming for a not very risky solid, reliable, tame fund, I guess I found it.
    Signed,
    ----The MFO resident Rank Amateur.

    I noticed the quality numbers, too. Still, if 47% is AAA rated, then why is the average quality only BB for the fund? He must own some real junk in there.
  • I'm no expert on mortgage paper, but my understanding is that unlike company debt ratings, there is not a lot of incentive on anyone's part to have mortgage paper re-reviewed (and possibly upgraded). So a lot of this paper, dated 2008 and prior, which had lousy ratings, probably would merit an increase IF someone paid Moodys/S&P/Fitch for a new ratings-review. But no one does.

    Meanwhile on most of that pre-crisis vintage mortgage paper, any debtor who was going to stop paying, long ago has since stopped paying, and housing prices have recovered. So generally, there may be a lot of lousy-rated paper which 'ain't so lousy'..

    But again, you and I are not buying the paper, we pay pros to do that type of analysis -- pros (like Gundlach) who have a long track record in up and down markets.
  • Is DoubleLine's Jeffrey Gundlach The New Bond King?
    JF talks about differences among TOTL, DBLTX, Core (DBLFX), and Flexible.

    FWIW, I own DBLTX which is the best antidote for equity risk.
  • @soaring, why instead of say PONDX?
  • I noticed the quality numbers, too. Still, if 47% is AAA rated, then why is the average quality only BB for the fund? He must own some real junk in there.

    It's a default-rate-weighted average, so that the average quality represents the average or expected default rate of the portfolio as a whole. Here's M*'s methodology; note the default weight values in the table at the bottom of p. 2.

    https://prnedelivery.morningstar.com/Average_credit_Quality_Methodology_Change_2010.pdf

  • msf said:

    I noticed the quality numbers, too. Still, if 47% is AAA rated, then why is the average quality only BB for the fund? He must own some real junk in there.

    It's a default-rate-weighted average, so that the average quality represents the average or expected default rate of the portfolio as a whole. Here's M*'s methodology; note the default weight values in the table at the bottom of p. 2.

    https://prnedelivery.morningstar.com/Average_credit_Quality_Methodology_Change_2010.pdf

    Very interesting. I never realized that they use this method for calculation. It does seem skewed since the range for default rates is so narrow for higher rated bonds compared to low quality. Maybe I'm wrong but having just a few lower rated bonds can drive down the overall quality in a hurry. At least according to *M.
  • msf
    edited October 2015
    Yup. Having a few bonds with a high probability of default gives the portfolio as a whole a good shot at losing at least a small percentage of money to defaults.

    Since highly rated bonds have a miniscule chance of default, you have to move fairly far down the credit scale (AAA, AA, A, ...) to find a bond that has the same small (but not insignificant) default rate as the portfolio weighted average.
  • edited October 2015
    @msf- math is certainly not my strong point, so this is probably a really stupid question: with respect to "below B" in that table, is it the assumption that 100% of the bonds in that category will default? That seems quite extreme, so it likely doesn't mean that. What is the implication of "relative" here? Does it perhaps mean that this category is 100 times more likely to default than "AAA"? If that's so, how would they come by that particular judgement?

    image
  • @soaring, why instead of say PONDX?

    Not soaring, but currently for a three fund diversified bond portfolio I like DLTNX/DBLTX, PONDX/PIMIX, and DLFRX/DBFRX.

    Mona

  • thanks; was wondering if PONDX was diverse enough by itself
  • I like PIMIX/PONDX. I like to split my fixed income exposure in tax-deferred space into safer/high quality stuff and another with riskier/higher total return. I currently pair DBLTX with PDI which is an OEF managed by David Ivascyn. I replaced PIMIX with PDI when the discount was widened this Summer.

    I like to keep 1/2 of my fixed income to diversify the equity risk. DBLTX is negatively correlated with equity. See here. FWIW, In taxable space, I own 1 OEF and 3 CEF muni funds.

  • Old_Joe said:

    @msf- math is certainly not my strong point, so this is probably a really stupid question: with respect to "below B" in that table, is it the assumption that 100% of the bonds in that category will default? That seems quite extreme, so it likely doesn't mean that. What is the implication of "relative" here? Does it perhaps mean that this category is 100 times more likely to default than "AAA"? If that's so, how would they come by that particular judgement?

    The description of the table says that these are relative rates on a scale of 0 to 100. So the worst category (below B) is given an arbitrary figure of 100. The other categories are given figures representing the percentage of defaults they have relative to the percentage of defaults of "below B" bonds. Thus BBB bonds, with a relative rate of 5, default 5% as often as "below B" bonds.

    What those rates are, I don't know. As I think about it, I can't say what period these rates are computed over. Is M* using a one year default rate (percent of BBB bonds that default within a single year), or more likely a cumulative default rate (percent of BBB bonds that default at one or more points over their lifetime)? "Default" almost certainly includes any bond that misses a payment; but does it include technical defaults (see Meridith Whitney), where some condition of the bond is violated even if all payments are made?

    The NRSROs publish figures on defaults vs. ratings, so mappings from credit ratings to default rates are known. Here's a paper on defaults from S&P:
    2014 Annual Global Corporate Default Study And Rating Transitions

    P.S. Don't sell yourself short. It's not a stupid question, and I initially wondered about that 100 also. Below B bonds are either in risk of imminent default (C range) or in default (Ds); still some of these bonds don't default.
  • @msf- thank you, once again. Don't know what we'd do around here without you.
  • @soaring, I have had bad luck underwater the last 10 months with PDI, for the first or first few of which I did not reinvest, so it's tricky to figure against the standard growth-10k chart. Plus the discount to holdings. I will bail as soon as I get to the surface.
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