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Help requested: SC/MC value funds

Looking to collect the gold watch soon (absent the actual gold watch), and am looking to replace 2 good SC/MC value funds currently in my 401K which I will transfer to Schwab..the two current funds are TRMCX and PCVAX, and these are closed and not available for purchase. I'm not firmly wedded to having two distinct funds, so a fund with both small and mid-caps would be fine...but I would prefer the value tilt.

I've spent a fair amount of time identifying and tracking candidates, and have narrowed it down to the following funds. I'm interested in whether the contributors here have opinions of those on the list...or may have others to consider.

PMDAX
KSMVX
WSVRX
HUSIX
DEFIX
VETAX
HIMVX

Thanks in advance.....






Comments

  • PressmUP: The envelope please, and the winner is HIMVX, ranked # 2 (MCV fund by U.S.News & World Report. My second choice would be HUSIX
  • Opining on the funds meaningfully would be difficult without knowing your portfolio strategy. Is it maximum market exposure to capture all the upside (and the downside)? Is it necessary to manage volatility and drawdowns at the expense of lower returns than category? Are you looking for a manager that allocates smartly between small and midcaps to have returns closest to whatever is working or a fund that just splits between the two to provide reasonable exposure to both at all times.

    Looking at past performance in this category would be very misleading as funds have moved between small and midcaps, not always intentionally (e.g., too much asset growth for small caps).

    If you are looking for a long time holding, it would be good to understand what each fund does than just a few years of performance. That is a better indicator what it might do in the future.

    But that evaluation has to be in the context of what you are looking for.

    Otherwise, opinions will have the implicit assumptions of what people look for in a fund and will be as relevant to you as asking a bunch of strangers as to which wine they like in a list.
  • What cm said. I am keen on downside prudence, and thus would suggest you look hard at three not your list: FLPSX. RGHVX, and GABSX.
  • HIMVX really is a mid-cap, while WSVRX holds mostly small stocks. Great combination.
  • From the perspective of protecting on the downside, I like these:

    NSEIX for midcap value, although this is really an all-cap value fund that comes out midcap on average. If that eliminates it for you, VASVX is a good choice.

    QRSVX had its day as a popular choice for small value. Probably for most that day has passed, but I still like it. And the only thing RYTRX has going against it is the Royce name, also once popular but now rather soiled by over-marketing (okay, it's not exactly nimble, either).

    If you prefer strong outperformance on the upside, you should probably look elsewhere.
  • davidrmoran: RGHVX would not be considered a small-mid cap fund. As per David's write up on this fund:
    Objective and strategy
    RiverPark/Gargoyle Hedged Value seeks long-term capital appreciation while exposing investors to less risk than broad stock market indices. The strategy is to hold a diversified portfolio mid- to large-cap value stocks, mostly domestic, and to hedge part of the stock market risk by selling a blend of index call options. In theory, the mix will allow investors to enjoy most of the market’s upside while being buffered for a fair chunk of its downside.
    I like it and I own it, but it uses hedging strategies.
  • Depends on who's considering. Dig deeper. ~70% most recently. Can't go solely by writeups here. You own it.
  • Depends on who's considering? Dig deeper?

    from their website:
    The RiverPark/Gargoyle Hedged Value Fund seeks to purchase undervalued stocks and hedge part of the stock market risk by selling a blend of index call options. By combining a short call option strategy to its long equity portfolio, the fund believes it can increase the fund’s income, reduce the volatility of its returns and, in general, improve the reward/risk of the stock portfolio. Proprietary tools are used in an effort to maintain the fund's net long market exposure within a target range so that investors
    participate as equities are trending higher and are partially protected as equities are trending lower.
    I'm just saying I wouldn't use it as a pure midcap fund. For lack of a better classification, most publications call it a long/short fund. I use it as an alternitive equity investment to reduce stock market volatility. The managers hedging approach has been super since inception as a mutual fund... But, whatever. You can call it mid-cap/small cap if you want.
  • If you are interested in protecting the downside, take a look at ICMAX which fared very well in the 2008 downturn and has beaten many of the cited funds over its lifetime. It is a very different fund though, which can go to cash (about 70% now, as their bottoms-up methodology is not finding good value in this market).
  • @davidrmoran and @MikeM seem to be talking past each other.

    @MikeM is right because RGHVX is a Long/Short fund, @davidrmoran is right because it is a dominant mid cap in its long positions with rest in large caps with shorting primarily for downside hedge. It does not have much, if any, of small caps, so it may not satisfy the requirement of the original poster in coverage unless paired with a small cap.

    Portfolio allocation by labels can be misleading though.

    I would consider RGHVX as a candidate for midcap value (David's report is wrong in comparing it to large cap value) WITH downside protection like any "pure" fund that may go to cash for downside protection. The differentiation between funds that protect downside by going to cash vs hedging as in the case of this fund seems like a difference without a distinction to me in behavior or even in risk.

    It is like classifying as Bordeaux vs classifying as Cabernet or Merlot. It is the result characteristic that matters.

    The strategies are just means to an end which is to participate in mid-long market with downside protection for this fund. Pure seems like an arbitrary label. Is a fund that has allocation to large caps pure? Not any more or less than using index options to hedge in my view. Most funds are not pure.

    The problem is that L/S category includes many different categories with different goals. If the goal of RGHVX in its short position was to remain market neutral to get absolute returns then I would agree with @MikeM and not put it in a mid cap category because its return profile would be very different from a mid cap.
  • VXF is your best choice for both.

    Suitability
    Vanguard Extended Market Index ETF is a suitable core holding for investors who want to complement a U.S. large-cap equities allocation with exposure to mid-cap, small-cap, and micro-cap stocks. This exchange-traded fund tracks the S&P Completion Index, which holds nearly the entire U.S. market, except for those stocks already in the S&P 500 Index. Its constituent companies are widely diversified across sectors and the value-growth spectrum. For those looking to control their market-cap exposure, this fund works well with an S&P 500 Index fund such as Vanguard S&P 500 ETF to cover the range of U.S. stock market capitalizations with minimal holdings overlap.
  • @ron, OP seems to be looking for value funds.

    I don't know if there is an extended market value index fund. That would fit the bill IF the goal of the OP is pure and full market exposure with no downside protection. Or a combination of mid cap value and small cap value index funds if which there are plenty.

    But since, the original question is under-specified (need a Cabernet/Merlot) in requirement, it allows for creative interpretations to fit one's own pet fund.:-)
  • edited May 2014
    Well, it seems I needed to provide a bit more detail here...and am glad to oblige although my planning may not be to the depth of many on this board.

    My request was specifically for my 401K/IRA account. I mentally allocate money to different sleeves, which I believe others on this board do as well. They are:

    Bucket 1: money currently saved, and allocated for years 1-4 spend
    -CMNIX
    -SUBFX
    -PIFZX
    -RSIIX

    Income sleeve: generating annual dollars to replenish Bucket 1 or annual spend
    -TGINX
    -OSTIX
    -PONDX
    -LSBRX
    -BERIX
    -RSIIX
    -WOBDX
    -A few stocks...HCN, WPC, AEP, O, PAYX, RPM, KMI, JNJ, NGG

    Funds for general growth: These get periodic haircuts to fund Bucket 1, add to the income sleeve, or annual spend:
    -FAIRX
    -RPMGX
    -TRMCX
    -PCVAX
    -VHCOX
    -FPACX
    -YAFFX
    -GPGOX
    -ARTGX
    -SFGIX

    It is from this last group that I am needing to replace TRMCX and PCVAX. Just looking for a good mid and small cap value fund to replace these good performers...my goal is for solid total return...from which I can give haircuts when the accumulation warrants. I'm ok with risk, as I have sufficient ballast to accommodate the waves.

    To this point, I am leaning to HIMVX and WSVRX, thanks Ben.

    What a great exercise...thanks.

    Press
  • If drawdown/volatility/capital protection, etc aren't necessary for you, then I don't see a case for these active funds as opposed to just using index funds VMVIX and VISVX or equivalent from any fund family.

    HIMVX loses more in down markets and does very little over an index in the long term. WSVRX isn't really a value fund and makes its performance look better in M* by diversifying across midcap and small growth. Besides, it doesn't have a long enough record to understand what it might do in a correction.

    I would either stick with the pair of index funds or active managers that have a significant advantage over the indices in a full cycle. The YAFFX you have for large caps is a good example of that. Otherwise, you are just making these managers rich to hug the indices over long term.

    FLPSX is an example of such an idiosyncratic fund that makes taking the manager risk worthwhile.

    Or you could buy a small position into the really idiosyncratic OSFDX and keep the rest in index funds! That will likely give you better alpha than these huge index hugger active funds.
  • Just want to sneak this in: stay away from loaded funds. You wanna PAY for the privilege of giving them your money? ...D'oh!
  • I need a macro key for 'everything cman said'.

    Press, you have way too many funds and are doing expensive indexing, or coming close.

    MM, correct: RGHVX is not pure. Note that it's ~16% SC, compared with, oh, I dunno, 0% for Yackts, 4% for PRBLX, and 21% for FLPSX. So in the game of 'which is most like the other' or whatever it is, it has quite a nontrivial amount of SC in addition to all its MC (of course its M* class is MCV).
    All I was sayin' at the start.
  • Market Capitalization Size % of Portfolio Benchmark Category Avg

    Giant 0.39 0.26 4.22

    Large 5.19 28.56 14.53

    Medium 48.38 65.48 57.93

    Small 32.62 5.66 23.16

    Micro 13.41 0.04 0.16

    cman said:

    @ron, OP seems to be looking for value funds.

    I don't know if there is an extended market value index fund. That would fit the bill IF the goal of the OP is pure and full market exposure with no downside protection. Or a combination of mid cap value and small cap value index funds if which there are plenty.

    But since, the original question is under-specified (need a Cabernet/Merlot) in requirement, it allows for creative interpretations to fit one's own pet fund.:-)

  • I know that you said that you aren't looking for a "conservative" fund, but ARIVX still looks good as a total return fund across a market cycle.

    I've used HDPMX to help with alpha in up markets, but it's a volatile offering.

    BRSIX is a unique "index" fund to access very small companies. It has done well in up markets. It did not do well in 2007/2008 and Bridgeway tweaked the recipe a bit.

    FWIW
  • I need a macro key for 'everything cman said'.

    Press, you have way too many funds and are doing expensive indexing, or coming close.

    Appreciate the feedback, but not sure I agree. Of my 10 equity funds, half are bets on the manager, FAIRX, YAFFX, GPGOX, FPACX, VHCOX and ARTGX. Each have a unique focus, and quirkiness which I like.
  • Average the results over time and you will most probably begin to see they cancel out one another's quirks, pluses, etc. Diworsification of quirks. Sez me anyway. But you obviously give thought to all of this and do homework.
  • You very well could be correct. But what's the point of this website then?
  • @PRESSmUp I'm not sure I understand your question.
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