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The war

edited March 2022 in Off-Topic
By now we’re all saturated with this. So, I’ll dispense with links. 75% of my information comes from Bloomberg and 20% from PBS. A bit from the WSJ.

It’s damned complicated in that Ukraine has many Russian speaking residents - particularly in the eastern part and was at one time part of the former Soviet Union. Obviously the citizens have a long history of independence and desire to remain free. And, if there were any doubts, Putin is revealed as the dictator and thug he really is. Damn, anybody who has his political opponents poisoned while living outside the country needs to be taken seriously. The screws are tightening on Russia in a lot of ways. With the Ruble falling and companies like McDonalds shuttering their businesses and pulling out it has to hurt and make the citizens wonder WTF is going on. Of course, their news is censored / government controlled.

I’m not pleased with the public posturing of the U.S. leadership. Hard to pin it down. But the constant refrain of “We can’t do this because Russia may misinterpret and expand the war” while true - would hardly seem to require voicing. Keep your cards closer to the vest. Let them guess. Damn. I don’t want a nuclear war either. On the other hand, we know where a policy of appeasement got us in the 30s. What I suspect (hope) is that we have people inside Russia doing our bidding - both from an intelligence standpoint and also working with Russian dissidents to possibly effect change. Never underestimate the ingenuity of Americans.

So,I do not criticize our actions, intent or capabilities. But I do question the public posturing in that it makes us seem weak and shows too much of our hand. God help the people of Ukraine.
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Comments

  • This definitely is not going to end well. Putin will eventually assimilate Ukraine, and that will be only the beginning. We older people know where a policy of appeasement got us in the 30s, but I really wonder if most people under sixty even have a clue.
  • Hard to think of any recent war, or any war really, that ended well. Maybe the one ending in 1783.
  • edited March 2022
    No good suggestions from here. But, FWIW, here are a few thoughts.....

    The current situation has made this seventy something reflect on firsthand experiences of the Cold War, the Iron Current, the Berlin Wall, and time spent under the desk during nuclear war drills. Most younger people have little appreciation for some or all of these events. So, maybe we will need to endure living through 21st century versions of them. Many European nations are so far responding strongly -- probably partly due to physical reminders and visceral memories of what they directly experienced in the run up to, during, and in the aftermath of WWII. So far, the US is responding strongly too (somewhat surprisingly so to me).

    No complaints from this house about the current level of the US led coalition response. I think there is a chance Putin and Zelinskiy will eventually decide a negotiated settlement is better than watching Ukraine be largely destroyed if the war grinds on. If not, can the coalition maintain it's cohesiveness if the duration of the war requires that? If not, Putin will probably eventually win if the people of Russia are willing to suffer long enough to let that happen. But, can/should NATO countries keep from becoming more directly involved if the level of atrocities increases substantially? If not -- and I suspect that will probably prove to be the case -- the current turmoil caused by this war may seem minor in comparison to what follows.
  • "If not -- and I suspect that will probably prove to be the case -- the current turmoil caused by this war may seem minor in comparison to what follows."

    "... and that will be only the beginning."

    Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
  • Howdy folks,

    This is a toughie because I hate war. I particularly hate the half-ass clean war, police action worthlessness we've been engaging in since Korea and up until Afghanistan. All we've bought with trillions of dollars are wounded and dead Americans and no geopolitical gains.

    Do you know what war is? It means you kill everything that moves, including the women and children, dogs, cats, sheep and cattle and even the goldfish. If it doesn't move, you blow it up. You keep doing this until your enemy unconditionally surrenders. Think Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

    Let that sink in. Wow. This is nasty. The nastiest pastime we humans have come up with. War is evil. But sometimes inevitable. If you cannot stomach the thought of war, you will want to invite your enemy for dinner and have them bring the kids.

    I would much prefer to bring all our troops home and defend the shores. You could save $500B a year and still upgrade the technology, trained and readiness of our military. The money saved could go for universal health care and education for if the truth be known, our first line of defense is a healthy and educated populace.

    As for Ukraine, I heard one retired defense guy put it, 'it's like the dog chasing a car. what do you do when you catch it?'

    This is already a 'cause celebre' and volunteers are coming from all over the world. Wali is headed from Canada and apparently, the Canadians have so many, they've formed a battalion. This is going to the eternal guerilla war from hell, IFF Vlad doesn't escalate and bring in NATO.

    Ratshit.

    S/Sgt Rono, Admin Chief, CoA, 1stReconBn, 1stMarDiv, Danang Mar68-Nov69



  • edited March 2022
    This war has the potential to substantially reshape NATO and the global order. European Union Countries have woken up to how vulnerable they are and they have ambitious plans. Hopefully their leadership and populations have the will and determination to follow through.
    “We can see how our food, our energy, our defence are all issues of sovereignty,” he (Macron) said. “We want to be open to the world but we want to choose our partners and not depend on anybody.”
    Versailles declaration says Russia’s war in Ukraine has heralded ‘tectonic shift in European history’
  • edited March 2022
    An excerpt from The Economist newsletter, today:
    President Joe Biden reiterated that America will not send troops to fight in Ukraine, saying that doing so would mean a direct confrontation between NATO and Russia and thus “World War III”.
    Speaking of NATO: It's resolve to keep clear of the present situation should keep it, and the US, out of any serious military operations for the present. The most likely end game for Ukraine is a Russian takeover, with ongoing internal guerilla warfare from then on. Russia will then build something similar to a Trump Wall to keep outside help from entering Ukraine. The Cold War all over again.

    After that, it's a matter of time until Russia determines which country is going to be next on it's list. Some time or some place NATO is going to be forced to actively engage. A day or two after US forces are focused on that situation China will use the distraction as cover to invade Taiwan. WW III.

    Game Over.
  • edited March 2022
    “President Joe Biden reiterated that America will not send troops to fight in Ukraine, saying that doing so would mean a direct confrontation between NATO and Russia and thus “World War III”. “

    Makes you wonder why we spend billions on weapons too terrible to ever be used.
  • edited March 2022
    Well now … Here’s a cover that also expresses a somewhat contentious point of view on one of the most pressing issues of the day.

    I also think there’s still hope for the struggling “Off Topic” section when Barron’s latches on to one of the topics being discussed here and uses it for their cover story.


    image
  • edited March 2022
    In my post above, I said:
    "Some time or some place NATO is going to be forced to actively engage."

    And I've just run across this from a current Associated Press article. Some excerpts:
    HELSINKI — Sweden’s foreign minister is dismissing fresh warnings from Russia that the Nordic country’s joining NATO would lead to retaliatory measures from Moscow.

    Russia’s Interfax news agency on Saturday quoted a Russian Foreign Ministry official saying the possible accession of Sweden and neighboring Finland to NATO would have serious military and political consequences.

    Sergei Belyayev, the head of department for Nordic countries at the Russian Foreign Ministry, said such a situation would require Russia to take “retaliatory measures” but didn’t specify what those measures could include.

    Moscow has repeatedly warned both Finland and Sweden that joining NATO would be seen as a hostile act from Moscow. Both countries have brushed off those warnings.
    So, there's a bit of clarification on possible "places". Add Sweden and Finland to Lithuania, which is already a NATO member and is next to, and forms the border of, the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad- Russia's militarized outpost on the Baltic Sea. Lithuania declared a state of emergency Thursday afternoon due to the situation in Ukraine.

    Other NATO states contiguous to Russia or Ukraine include Estonia, Latvia, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania, all of which were former Russian captive states, and undoubtedly on Putin's list of territory to be "reclaimed". Plenty of room for NATO trouble.
  • Russia may decide it makes sense to tempt a NATO country into participating in the war by targeting arms shipments headed to Ukraine while they are still in route through NATO countries that border Ukraine.

    Russia warns U.S. over arms shipments to Ukraine
  • I'd be amazed if Putin deliberately sucks NATO into the present conflict. He's pretty much got his hands full as it is, and I really don't think that he's insane. But after he has Ukraine back under Russian control and he regroups and rearms he'll be looking at Russia's borders to see who will be next.
  • edited March 2022
    davfor said:

    Russia may decide it makes sense to tempt a NATO country into participating in the war by targeting arms shipments headed to Ukraine while they are still in route through NATO countries that border Ukraine.

    Russia warns U.S. over arms shipments to Ukraine

    Yes - This was the opening sentence on NBC Evening “News” on Saturday. Than silence. The rest of the show was about a cyclonic event at a Florida beach that didn’t hurt anyone but scared some sunbathers, a traffic wreck in Pennsylvania, a snowstorm out west, a reporter’s ride in a self driving big-rig and some cuddly story about a sick child who recovered.

    Thanks for the link (I think). I’d half forgotten deranged Putin might be getting ready to target Americans serving / working with NATO in Europe..

    Pogo reigns again …
  • edited March 2022
    "Russia may decide it makes sense to tempt a NATO country into participating in the war"

    For what possible reason at this point?
  • edited March 2022
    Old_Joe said:

    "Russia may decide it makes sense to tempt a NATO country into participating in the war" For what possible reason at this point?

    I read the quoted post a bit too quickly. Not in full agreement with it. I agree with @Old_Joe to the extent their motive would not be to tempt NATO to enter the war.

    Still, it sounds like Putin would not be adverse to a NATO country getting involved if he felt he could thereby halt the flow of Stinger missiles and other armaments into Ukraine from the western alliance.
    From what I gather on scattered media reports, the NATO countries, including the U.S., are ramping up procurement and delivery of lethal arms to Ukraine and these are slowing the Rusdian advance and resulting in heavy loss of life on Russia’s end.
  • I doubt if Putin sees an advantage to deliberately pulling NATO into the conflict at this point. The Ukraine war is still in its early stages. But it is clear he is willing to push the boundaries on that front.
  • There's a parallel thread over in the Discussions that have Comments section. In case you've not been there, I'm replicating a post here that was also made over there.
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    Below are extensive excerpts from a current article in The Economist. The article focuses on the parallels with the Soviet Union under Stalin. I've seriously abridged the article to include some of the more serious points that it makes.

    Of those points, I think that this is one of the most important: "American army doctrine says that to face down an insurgency—in this case, one backed by NATO—occupiers need 20 to 25 soldiers per 1,000 people; Russia has a little over four."

    When Vladimir Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine, he dreamed of restoring the glory of the Russian empire. He has ended up restoring the terror of Josef Stalin. That is not only because he has unleashed the most violent act of unprovoked aggression in Europe since 1939, but also because, as a result, he is turning himself into a dictator at home.

    Consider how the war was planned. Russia’s president thought Ukraine would rapidly collapse, so he did not prepare his people for the invasion or his soldiers for their mission. After two terrible weeks on the battlefield, he is still denying that he is waging what may become Europe’s biggest war since 1945. He has shut down almost the entire independent media, threatened journalists with up to 15 years in jail if they do not parrot official falsehoods, and had anti-war protesters arrested in their thousands.

    And to gauge Mr Putin’s paranoia, imagine how the war ends. Russia has more firepower than Ukraine. It is still making progress, especially in the south. It may yet capture the capital, Kyiv. And yet, even if the war drags on for months, it is hard to see Mr Putin as the victor.

    Suppose that Russia manages to impose a new government. Ukrainians are now united against the invader. Mr Putin’s puppet could not rule without an occupation, but Russia does not have the money or the troops to garrison even half of Ukraine. American army doctrine says that to face down an insurgency—in this case, one backed by NATO—occupiers need 20 to 25 soldiers per 1,000 people; Russia has a little over four.

    The truth is sinking in that, by attacking Ukraine, Mr Putin has committed a catastrophic error. He has wrecked the reputation of Russia’s supposedly formidable armed forces, which have proved tactically inept against a smaller, worse-armed but motivated opponent. Russia has lost mountains of equipment and endured thousands of casualties, almost as many in two weeks as America has suffered in Iraq since it invaded in 2003.

    And, as Stalin did, Mr Putin is destroying the bourgeoisie, the great motor of Russia’s modernisation. Instead of being sent to the gulag, they are fleeing to cities like Istanbul, in Turkey, and Yerevan, in Armenia. Those who choose to stay are being muzzled by restrictions on free speech and free association. They will be battered by high inflation and economic dislocation. In just two weeks, they have lost their country.

  • edited March 2022
    From the article mentioned above:
    " He has shut down almost the entire independent media, threatened journalists with up to 15 years in jail if they do not parrot official falsehoods, and had anti-war protesters arrested in their thousands."
    And here's a link to an excellent report on that aspect from The New York Times:

    ‘Things Will Only Get Worse.’ Putin’s War Sends Russians Into Exile-
    "Thousands of Russians saw their comfortable, middle-class lives fade overnight with the invasion ordered by President Vladimir V. Putin. While the exodus of about 2.7 million Ukrainians from their war-torn country has focused the world on a burgeoning humanitarian crisis, the descent of Russia into new depths of authoritarianism has many Russians despairing of their future."

  • edited March 2022
    If Russian missiles are coming in your direction and only 11 miles from your border would you take any actions? I’m thinking maybe planes were scrambled by Poland and/or NATO, missiles tanked-off or armed? targets acquired? other measures taken?

    Or just “ho-hum”?

    Yes - this is being discussed on the “On Topic” board as well. I’d prefer to flaunt my ignorance of such matters here.
  • edited March 2022
    Pootin is entrenched in his position, being the one in charge. His political control within Russia is of course not legitimate. He poisons and kills and imprisons any serious opponents. He is an animal. No conscience. His position is enforced and reinforced by the mafia-style gang-ocracy he steers. He's the "Godfather." Any measure of friendliness with the West (as with Yeltsin) is gone. ...Ordinary Joe Average Russian is every bit as much a victim of that "system" as we are, here--- though more so. Though utterly dysfunctional, at least attempts are still made to make our political system operate as a real political system. (Though the Russian regime has served to undermine it with disinformation and bullshit which our own very stoopid voters have swallowed, hook, line and sinker.)

    Like people everywhere, individual Russians out in the hustings come up against what's happening and throw up their arms in impotent disgust, or else they jump on the bandwagon in support of the Criminal Pootin. Like with Marcos in the old days in the Philippines. He was a scumbag, but "he's OUR scumbag." He was a corrupt pig, but he did favors for SOME, and ingratiated himself within those circles. There is even still today an element in the P.I that longs for another iteration of Marcos. And his son is campaigning for President. A tax criminal. But no one will do anything about it....

    So, Russians can't get out of their own way, because collectively, they cannot imagine anything better. Or they reject other prospects as unrealistic. REMIND YOU OF ANYWHERE ELSE????????? Does it remind you of EVERYWHERE else?????
    A Berlin Airlift rescue is called for, now. It's even rather late, already. Western leaders are cowed, not wanting to poke The Bear. Screw the Bear. It's time to kill the Bear. Violence is all THAT Bear understands. he must be stood up to. And it's not happening.

    I vote for The Dude in 2024. Jeffrey Lebowski. "This aggression will not stand, man!" "You see what happens, Larry? You see what happens when you...............???!!!"
    You who get your panties in a bunch over 4-letter words might want to skip this clip from the film:

  • edited March 2022
    Hard to get fricken up to date news. The cable and network news shows are mostly portraying this as a soap opera with lots on one-on-one “human interest” stories and interviews from Ukraine of dubious value and ignoring any strategic information or analysis. Appealing to eyeballs I guess, from a dumbed-down public.

    Ukraine replaced Covid as their big “audience pull.” That will work until some celebrity figure says something stupid or gets into legal trouble, at which time the war in Ukraine will be forgotten. Bloomberg TV and Radio are about all I have for current information. Of course, the WSJ also covers the story - but with the necessary time delay. And what PBS covers on their newscasts is very good.

    I remember (1950s) when many folks in the neighborhood regularly maintained underground bomb shelters in their homes, supplied with stores of food and water. Radios had 2 required “Conelrad” markings on the dial where the government could transmit information in case of attack.
  • @hank I believe you're right. I agree with that assessment. I get Al Jazeera and another I just discovered: TRT. what the hell is TRT? TURKISH Radio and Television. Who knew???? Anyhow, the individual "human interest stories" have taken center stage. Dumbed-down public, is right. I can get CNN, too. Much the same.
  • edited March 2022
    Old_Joe said:

    Below are extensive excerpts from a current article in The Economist.

    Thanks for those excerpts. Other reading suggests the extent of his military losses may not be as substantial as the excerpts suggest. But clearly the war is not going as he had hoped.

    It is my impression Russian autocrats are expected to win the wars they wage if they expect to retain power. One option that might achieve that goal is for him to negotiate a settlement where he makes meaningful strategic gains that can be solidified by agreement and that can be sold as a victory to a sufficiently large percentage of prominent and everyday Russians. It doesn't seem to me that an increased level of ongoing hardship for the Russian population would much matter to him in that case. Freeing Russia from "corrupting outside influences" would make that a small price to pay. Another option is to achieve that goal with more limited gains but without an agreement. Achieving either of those options may require extending the war for a substantial period of time. But, extending the war may result in cracks in the resolve of the coalition that opposes him.

    It is my sense he sees it to be his duty to restore Russia to his vision of its "rightful" place in the world. I doubt if he will accept defeat and go peacefully into the night. He might eventually be taken out from within. But, if not, here are a couple of worrisome things I am currently thinking about. Might a limited version of WWIII eventually appear necessary to him at some point? And, somewhat related to that, is there a strong likelihood he would continue to refrain from even very limited use of tactical nuclear weapons? (It is my understanding Russia probably has a 10 to 1 superiority in those weapons.) There is reason to wonder if he might not since Putin has defined the current situation as one in which, in line with the principles of its deterrence policy, Russia retains the right to use nuclear weapons. Just thinking....
  • edited March 2022
    Please see my post in the "Russia Now Going for Poland Perhaps" discussion with respect to the impracticality of any sort of airlift at this time.
  • Just read that, OJ. Yes.
  • Putin as a 21st century fascist? That description may help to explain him and this war.

    Putin Isn’t Just an Autocrat. He’s Something Worse.


    Putin’s War on Ukraine Is About Ethnicity and Empire
  • edited March 2022
    davfor said:

    Putin as a 21st century fascist? That description may help to explain him and this war.

    Isn’t Russia a Communist country?

    From each according to his means … And to each according to his needs.”

    Or has Karl Marx been disavowed?

    Russian Yachts
  • edited March 2022
    hank said:

    davfor said:

    Putin as a 21st century fascist? That description may help to explain him and this war.

    Isn’t Russia a Communist country?
    I am no historian. But, I thought about that question after reading the "Putin Isn't Just An Autocrat...." article yesterday. He apparently is still a card carrying member of the communist party. But Russia has been acting like a post communist country in recent decades. And, using the term fascist helps me to more fully encapsulate his nationalistic, expansionist, supremacist, racist, violent, and chauvinistic characteristics than autocrat does. Also, many of his behaviors seem to mirror those of prominent 20th century fascists. So, I decided it probably makes sense to allow for a broad definition of fascist. "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck".

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