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Schwab, First Republic, Zion, bank loan and preferred funds bloodbath

edited March 2023 in Fund Discussions
OK it is very early in the trading day but at as post this First Republic is down 74%, Zion Bank down 31%, and Schwab down 20% to name just a few. Preferred proxy PFF down 4.31% and the normally staid bank loan fund proxy BKLN down 1.55%. I am going hiking this morning so hope things improve by the time I get back. I am all in cash (SNAXX) but must admit a tad concerned about Schwab where I apparently have my monies being a TD Ameritrade account holder.

Edit: Should add junk bonds hanging in there. I would think these massive declines in anything bank related offer huge opportunities. But I will let others capitalize as catching falling knives is not my idea of enjoying life in old age.
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  • edited March 2023
    Preferred proxy PFF down 4.31% and the normally staid bank loan fund proxy BKLN down 1.55%.
    .
    Thanks for heads up. Have a great hike.
  • The walk will help the mind, during this 'dust settling' period. I'd walk a bit too, but we had another 2 inches of snow overnight and snowing now with a wind chill of about 20 degrees. Looking out the window will be it, for now.

  • IIRC cash in a brokerage sweep account is protected up to 250K via FDIC or SIPC coverage, right?

    That said I wouldn't fault people for moving large chunks of cash from a Schwab sweep or MMF into treasuries or treasury-ETFs at the moment.
  • Anybody buying the dip ?
  • Yeah I'm selling my Schwab MMF today because of this. Does anyone know if I can sell a MMF and also move the cash into treasuries the same day? or do I need to wait a day. I'm worried about protecting my cash. thanks.
  • MikeW said:

    Yeah I'm selling my Schwab MMF today because of this. Does anyone know if I can sell a MMF and also move the cash into treasuries the same day? or do I need to wait a day. I'm worried about protecting my cash. thanks.

    IIRC selling most Schwab MMFs settle same-day, so you should be ok. Maybe just pop onto chat to confirm w/them?
  • I think you're late to buy new issued T's, but older T's would be available, as of This Monday morning.
  • Treasuries settle same day as do Schwab MMF

    If you buy something with funds from the sale of a Schwab MMF same day, they now have a big red banner reminding you that you do not have enough settled cash.

    A real PIA not present at Fido with their sweep funds
  • The SIPC coverage is for account securities up to $500K (stocks, bonds, T-Bills, brokered CDs, m-mkt funds, etc) that can include brokerage cash up to $250K.

    It looks to me that the brokerage cash coverage would vary as it can be crowded out by securities.

    Note that FDIC coverage for bank failure is distinct from SIPC coverage for brokerage failure.

    SIPC FAQs https://www.sipc.org/for-investors/investor-faqs
    General Info https://ybbpersonalfinance.proboards.com/thread/366/fdic-ncua-sipc-insurance
  • @junkster enjoy the hike...I was just hiking myself in Western NC a few weeks ago...beautiful weather and hike.

    You might move monies into SUTXX/SNSXX Schwab US Treasury MMF...100% Tbill, less than 1 year maturities, weighted ave maturity 38 days...

    I can't see this one crumbling but for certain I am not an expert and with the social media hype/fear/human emotion who really knows how this plays out.

    My take is this is going to lead into even higher inflation and this will blow over. I'll take my chances with Schwab over most any other bank/institution...but does trouble me that their stonk is getting clobbered AND they are still offering 5.4% 18 month CD this morning....(Full Disclosure: I tanked up and bought up to the FDIC limit today)

    Sitting at my home office...keyboard tapper at the corp job...wishing I was out hiking...not really sure why I'm not...

    Best Regards, Good Health and Good Luck to ALL,

    Baseball Fan


  • per bloomberg -schwab
    Brokerage’s namesake founder says firm is ‘safe port’ in storm
    Firm says more than 80% of deposits are insured by the FDIC

    added more schwab dca slowly. hold long term. hope no bankrupcies
  • edited March 2023
    Derf said:

    Anybody buying the dip ?

    No. But I’m considering selling the pip. Depends what you own and what time of day it is.:)

    I watch a lot and can’t recall such unstable markets in a short time. Probably occurred a few times in ‘07-‘08. Leadership transitioning - but for how long? Non-dollar assets, stocks & especially metals, flying. At last look GNMA was +1% for the day. Good grief. And GDX +7.28% on the day at the moment.

    I’m clueless …
  • Why would someone think that funds in a Schwab money market fund would be at risk? Those funds are not invested in anything having to do with Schwab. If the underlying assets were at risk that risk would quite possibly stretch over many other prime money market funds offered by other broker/dealers. What's more, if a Schwab MMF were to be on the verge of "breaking the buck" what might Schwab do? In view of the fact that that could be the death knell for the brokerage business I know what I'd do: I'd take advantage of all my credit and borrow enough to fill any gap in that $1.00/share price. That goes for any major brokerage firm, not just Schwab.

  • Friday: Bill QUACKman makes headlines saying many banks are going to go under, gloom and doom, etc etc.

    Monday: Bill QUACKman says there are 'incredible bargains' in the banking sector, but Bloomberg notes that "the Pershing Square CEO said Monday that he won’t invest long or short in banks so he could “continue to be part of this conversation”."

    Give me a break.
  • WSJ: Bank of America's unrealized losses could be a potential vulnerability.AMIR HAMJA/BLOOMBERG NEWS
    Bank of America's stock skidded in premarket trading, with its losses outpacing big U.S. peers, amid concerns about whether unrealized losses on the bank's securities could be a potential vulnerability.

    Bank of America Stock Falls Further Than Peers Premarket

    Now that is definitely a large bank.
  • @sfnative ... I'm moving funds out of the MMF at Schwab because I want to have the FDIC insurance. For now, I'm putting the funds into a Schwab bank account. I might move it to a savings account at Goldman that is also FDIC insured and pays 3.75%. I'm doing this because I have no idea how safe a Schwab MMF fund is.... Maybe its fine but I'm not real comfortable with maybe. At any rate, I imagine this will all work out as the Fed is aware of the situation and will likely take the right steps.
  • The current yield on SWVXX is 4.48% while the current yield on SNSXX is 4.33%. Is it advisable to trade off the 15 basis points and be in SNSXX?
  • Retail-prime SWVXX may have gates or redemption fees without much notice. That may be a problem for check writing and other essential payments. SNSXX is a government/Treasury money-market fund with much lower probability for that.
  • There sure isn't anything wrong with wanting FDIC insurance, now or ever. I've been moving funds from MMFs into CDs in order to lock in higher interest rates; FDIC insurance was the cherry on top.
  • I have to agree with @sfnative...the Money Market funds in Schwab are as "safe" as their underlying holdings. Even if Schwab went under, creditors could not come after the MMF you own. The Schwab brokerage is a separate entity from the Schwab bank. As I stated prior, I'll take my chances at Schwab vs just about anywhere else...

    The failures at SVB, folks had their monies in the BANK and had monies over the FDIC limit.

    The only reason you would want to move into SNSXX (US Treasury) is because you would feel more comfortable owning US Tbill as your underlying investment.

    This is NOT advice, I don't know anything about anything, just stating my opinions and thoughts as I understand them. Others on the board are way more qualififed to answer questions.

    Good Luck to ALL, take a deep breath,

    Baseball Fan
  • For once I'm in complete agreement with @Baseball_Fan.
  • You made my day @Old Joe...HA!
  • Can anyone explain why preferred shares are taking it on the chin today other than guilt by association? I can somewhat understand why financial firm shares are getting hit but I don't own any of those nor would I.
  • Retail-prime SWVXX may have gates or redemption fees without much notice. That may be a problem for check writing and other essential payments. SNSXX is a government/Treasury money-market fund with much lower probability for that.

    Arguably zero probability w/o significant (technically "appropriate") notice. Government MMFs have to opt in to gating. If they don't opt in initially, they first have to give notice of opting in before they even begin the gating process.
    As a government money market fund, the fund’s Board of Trustees (the Board) has determined not to subject the fund to a liquidity fee and/or a redemption gate on fund redemptions. Please note that the Board has reserved its ability to change this determination with respect to liquidity fees and/or redemption gates, but only after providing appropriate prior notice to shareholders.
    Summary Prospectus

    Curiously, SNSXX (pure treasury) is yielding a few basis points more than SNOXX (treasuries and repurchase agreements backed by treasuries). We'll see how they compare tomorrow.
    https://www.schwab.com/money-market-funds#bcn-table--table-content-89811

    I'll stick with Vanguard. VUSXX 4.56% 7 day yield.
    https://investor.vanguard.com/investment-products/mutual-funds/profile/vusxx

    Regarding CDs - I just walked past a First Republic branch (no lines outside, seemed sedate inside). The window had a sign for a 60 day 4.25% CD. Any takers?
  • edited March 2023
    @Mark. Sorry - I can’t. But there’s some bizarre discrepancies today I don’t understand. A couple of my safest, most secure stocks are way down. One is a domestic conglomerate with concentration in media (-3%) and the other a U.S. consumers staples (-2%). Yet, the indexes are ahead. Wondering if some sort of general panic has prompted throwing the babies out with the bathwater? Also, the indexes may be skewed a bit to the high side by the 7%+ ramp-up in gold and silver.
  • hank said:

    @Mark. Sorry - I can’t. But there’s some bizarre discrepancies today I don’t understand. A couple of my safest, most secure stocks are way down. One is a domestic conglomerate with concentration in media (-3%) and the other a U.S. consumers staples (-2%). Yet, the indexes are ahead. Wondering if some sort of general panic has prompted throwing the babies out with the bathwater? Also, the indexes may be skewed a bit to the high side by the 7%+ ramp-up in gold and silver.

    In just three days, including today, I'm well below my cost basis in BHB. Stinky poopies.
    ET down.
    NHYDY down
    ALL down, except TIPs and PSTL, the postal REIT.

    EL. BIG-O SUCK-O. Half an hour left before the bell. Just taking my first cup of coffee. Over the week-end, the East pulled ahead of us here again by an extra hour. (6, under Daylight Time.)

    What to do.... I could use my MacAllan and enjoy "Irish Coffee" instead.
  • "I just walked past a First Republic branch (no lines outside, seemed sedate inside). The window had a sign for a 60 day 4.25%"

    @msf- That is indeed very unusual for First Republic. Normally their CD offerings to bank customers is paltry... typically several points lower than available at Schwab, just across the street on West Portal Avenue. We use First Republic for checking, but I wouldn't be interested in much else there right now. In fact, I've scheduled transfers to Schwab and Chase to draw down the First Republic checking account, at least for the time being.

    Speaking of CDs, a few minutes ago I bought a 50k/1 year Santander Bank CD at Schwab: 5.25%.
  • Old_Joe said:



    Speaking of CDs, a few minutes ago I bought a 50k/1 year Santander Bank CD at Schwab: 5.25%.

    You done good. Congratulations.
  • "Curiously, SNSXX (pure treasury) is yielding a few basis points more than SNOXX (treasuries and repurchase agreements backed by treasuries). We'll see how they compare tomorrow.
    https://www.schwab.com/money-market-funds#bcn-table--table-content-89811"

    @msf - I noticed that as well. Could it be because the Weighted Average Maturity for SNSXX is 34.7 days vs 7.0 days for SNOXX and rates are coming down?
  • I suppose it could be - SNOXX has to turn over its portfolio faster and could have been acquiring more lower yielding paper. But with rates gyrating by the minute, it's hard to tell.

    More interesting to me right now are the inflow rates of MMFs in the past 24 hours. You can find them navigating from the same Schwab page:
    https://www.schwab.com/money-market-funds#bcn-table--table-content-89811

    There's a huge outflow spike in SWVXX (prime MMF) - normally has inflows, had an outflow 6x the normal inflow rate.

    And corresponding inflow spikes in government MMFs:
    SNSXX - normally near zero +/-, had an inflow 20x normal magnitude
    SNOXX - normally has small inflows, had an inflow 15x

    These are to be expected knee jerk reactions. This pattern didn't hold with one MMF:

    SNVXX - more erratic pattern with some previous spikes, notably large outflows on a couple of days in January, but also a huge inflow spike Jan 4 just slightly larger than yesterday's inflow

    Those were the retail shares of these funds. Similar flows for the institutional share classes ($1M min), except for SGUXX (SNVXX). In the institutional share class, flows have been very sedate, including yesterday, except for one inflow spike (15x-30x normal net flow) on March 9th.
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