Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
@ Crash. I know that Lewis Braham is all that and more. I just was wondering what uncle is a reference to. And I say this with a smile, my remarks were hardly intended to make your case. My last on this topic is that when immigrants arrive here,we don’t from what countries a future president,,, doctors and lawyers,,, teachers and tech entrepreneurs and regular citizens came from. We do know that successful new citizens will arrive and they will overcome all kinds of difficulties to achieve great things. THE END.
@LewisBraham "The Case for Climate Reparations: The world’s poorest will bear the worst consequences of the climate crisis. Redirecting international resources to address entrenched inequalities provides a way out."
Reparations? Disagree. Rather than throwing huge sums at trying to fix the un-fixable, world leaders ought to be figuring out a way to absorb these unfortunate people into new home-countries, before they just plain drown. But "reparations" is a non-starter. ("We did a bad thing. Here, have some money." That's just silly. I'm not worried about amounts, it just seems to me that it's a bad-faith gesture. How much does forgiveness cost? You just cannot BUY it.) Repeating: immigration is not a BAD thing. Yet "developed" countries must work together with each other as well as the places toward which help is being extended. Anti-social behavior and terrorism cannot be tolerated. Hopefully, plots can be foiled before they hatch. And the identities of those involved can hopefully be discovered before they can do any harm. https://abcnews.go.com/International/facing-dire-sea-level-rise-threat-maldives-turns/story?id=80929487 ******************************************** "Still, the world has yet to officially recognize climate migrants or come up with formalized ways to assess their needs and help them." (From Lewis' PBS link.)
Just the point I made above. ******************************************** ************** ************** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strange_Death_of_Liberal_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strange_Death_of_Europe *********************** Continual famine and drought? Over and over? Give humanitarian assistance to those people. But follow-through: help them to MOVE TO WHERE THERE IS FOOD! The sand is going to remain sand. What's the sand going to be in 100 years? SAND! Immigration is not bad. New entries need to be vetted much better than has been the case. That's all I'm saying. Political refugees are not the same as climate refugees, and neither of them are the same as economic refugees. Whether refugees or just plain immigrants, there are standards of social behavior, civic lessons and some sort of mainstreaming process that must be implemented. I don't mean indoctrination. But those coming from places where standards are NOT the same need to be made clear: some things we ALL have to abide by.
Political refugees are not the same as climate refugees, and neither of them are the same as economic refugees. Whether refugees or just plain immigrants, there are standards of social behavior, civic lessons and some sort of mainstreaming process that must be implemented.
I agree. What I reject is the notion that refugees coming from certain countries are somehow more or less suspicious and therefore more deserving of rejection or acceptance than others. The use of the term "s...hole countries" is abhorrent to me, especially as I would maintain that colonialism has never ended and isn't in the past, and part of the reason those countries are doing poorly is because of the West. If Western values are at issue, only one of those values really should matter in the vetting process--tolerance of difference--which really is a respect for democratic principles. In the vetting process, one could easily ask "Can you accept that the ideology you believe is personal and private and in no way can you seek to impose that ideology on other people through violence?" The vetter can then investigate whether there is any history in the person's background to contradict their statements in this regard.
In other words what I'm saying is fanaticism of any sort is the enemy of democracy, but to presume that everyone coming from, say, an Islamic country is a potential terrorist is also toxic to democracy, to our fundamental belief in the individual will and tolerance for difference. It would be no different from assuming everyone coming from Ireland was a member of the Irish Republican Army or everyone from Italy belonged to the mafia when those immigrants faced discrimination. It also disavows the homegrown danger fanaticism poses in non-s...hole countries to democracy, i.e., Christian fanaticism here. See the Supreme Court.
The problem is if you are in a minority group, you are always painted with a broad brush by the majority--the literal definition of prejudice. If five young Syrian immigrants in Germany assault a woman, suddenly the majority says all Syrians are this way. Meanwhile, if five native Germans commit a similar crime, they are judged as individuals and the assumption is their actions do not reflect badly on all German people. This is why I have a problem with you, for instance, providing an example of the North African guy with the passport scam. Does that mean every North African refugee is doing that? Not anymore than every Irish refugee who came to the U.S. during the potato famine caused by British colonialism did this:
Not only did working-class Americans see the cheaper laborers taking their jobs, some of the Irish refugees even took up arms against their new homeland during the Mexican-American War. Drawn in part by higher wages and a common faith with the Mexicans, some members of the St. Patrick’s Battalion had deserted the U.S. Army after encountering ill-treatment by their bigoted commanders and fought with the enemy. After their capture, 50 members of the “San Patricios” were executed by the U.S. Army for their treasonous decisions.
So yes, I agree. Each refugee should be vetted, but based on their individual values and actions and the depth of their individual needs, not the country they come from. And yet, I would ask again, what will the U.S. do for growth without fresh young immigrants arriving at our shores? Our demographics are aging like Europe and Japan.
Many like Crash also treat a given situation (they hate our values, or whatever) as fixed and without modulation or indeed modulability. Families change as they prosper, if they do, and even if they don't. Kids go to school. Kids grow up and go online. Ooh, broadening (typically).
I suggest anyone who thinks as Crash does go watch several episodes of Finding Your Roots. At a high level it is similar stories over and over, regardless of arrival origin causes and motives.
@LewisBraham Thank you for that well-thought out response. I read it earnestly. I smiled and recognized your mention of the (Mexican) St. Patrick's Brigade.
Maybe this is Too Much Information: I have traveled in the Middle East. But it was in Jordan, only. It was delightful. The people there were friendly, smart, genuine. Of course it is a majority-Muslim country. But our group had a great time in Madaba, too--- a Christian town.
For me, it's not about religion. Not at all. And as a retired Minister, I lament the state of both mainstream Christianity as well as the ultra-Rightist nutjobs.
Douglas Murray's book ("The Strange Death of Europe") certainly did have an impact on me. And even WITHIN Europe, you have threats to a civilized democracy. A guy named Orban comes to mind. In the States, there are internal threats, too: The Trumpster, Boebert, MTG. But also some very un-famous people, too. I left my own hometown because it had become a high-crime area, and I was a victim 3 times in three years. Thankfully, it was not the sort of crime by which I was physically injured. Why do 99.9% of reported crimes back there involve Hispanics/Latinos? THERE'S a politically incorrect question that no one will touch. And in the case of those from Puerto Rico, they can freely come and go, because they are from a US Territory.
Potential threats exist within, already. Due notice should be made of that, as well as being on the lookout for whatever unwanted shit we might be importing. From anywhere.
Are the crime stats there, wherever there is, lied about?
It has been suggested to me to recategorize this thread, which I am going to seriously consider, although we have very many threads here long strayed from their nominal titling.
@Crash- I see nothing at either of those sites suggesting anything remotely similar to "99.9% of reported crimes back there involve Hispanics/Latinos".
Springfield, almost half Hispanic, has a cargo of serious crime for sure, gunrunning and drugs and more, and as a thrice-mugged ex-minister you were wise to leave. You're not doing yourself any favors speechifying with this kind of assertion:
>> Why do 99.9% of reported crimes back there involve Hispanics/Latinos? THERE'S a politically incorrect question that no one will touch.
Your second sentence, you may be assured apart from the falseness of the first, gets touched all the time, and not only by Fox psychos but by pols and feds and cops and social workers and everyone else. You're trying to make it sound like some sort of coverup. Or excess PC. Or something.
If this GOP vision of the city's hell is due to fellow citizens from PR, though, where does that leave the immigration arguments? You could write a musical about it. As Maria puts it, I can kill now because I hate now.
just take a look at the WWLP news website as the days go by, David. I'm talking about percentages and statistics, not hate. Why are the preponderance of arrests so gawd-awful often involving the Hispanic population? That's a problem that Hispanic mommies and daddies ought to be preventing from becoming the glaring problem that it's already become.
PR folks don't really have to immigrate. By citizenship, they already do belong. I chafe at the small-minded arguments about the requirement for PR folks to learn more than basic English. Actually, my experience is that most of them do rather well with English. I told a guy at the gym: "As long as the USA is going to OWN that island, where SPANISH is spoken, we should expect to hear Spanish in our comings and goings."
Our economy is in a better spot with immigration policies that are sensible. there have always been limits, eh? I had to get special permission to take a position in Canada. They don't want jobs routinely being taken by non-Canadians, EH?
Vetting those who want to come here needs to be a process that is continually being improved. Communication between intelligence agencies, both domestic and foreign. Interpol. And all the rest. Not just with some nationalities in mind. But for Russian criminal oligarch mafia scum-pigs, too.
An important thing to remember in finance and this topic as well is correlation is not causation. I would say poverty, a lack of education, a lack of opportunity and racism itself are the primary drivers of crime, not the usual loaded stereotypes. I’ve been in neighborhoods where the young men literally expect not to live past 30 if you ask them and even when they’re innocent everyone assumes that they’re a criminal. That kind of environment obviously affects their attitude towards life. Many put in that environment would think that way too, regardless of national origin. Most people want food in their belly, a roof over their heads, to reproduce and a bit of opportunity to improve their lives. Give them that and chances are they won’t turn to crime. Tell a young man full of hormones there is no hope for you in “normal society” because of the way you look or the country you’re from and violence is bound to occur. Gangs become both a surrogate family and a surrogate society where they are accepted and can make money.
I would add the connection to gangs and crime--of a separate society in the immigrant community from the mainstream one that rejects the newcomers--has been the story pretty much of every first generation immigrant group. It's the reason why West Side Story and the Godfather still resonate for many viewers all of these years later. I think though what DavidrMoran brings up is that eventually most immigrants assimilate and grow in subsequent generations, so long as their children are given opportunities to educate themselves and improve their lives with better jobs. I maintain they are a vital part of the American story--from every country--and essential to our future economic growth.
Puerto Ricans move to the US for a variety of reasons, including: the Island infrastructure destroyed by recent hurricanes has never been fully replaced, US economy is better than the Island economy , immigrants are able to vote for Senators, Congressmen and President as well as rejoining family who have permanently moved to the US.
Comments
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/10/case-for-climate-reparations-crisis-migration-refugees-inequality/
https://pbs.org/newshour/world/climate-change-is-already-fueling-global-migration-the-world-isnt-ready-to-meet-peoples-needs-experts-say
What we've seen so far is only a trickle of what will soon come to the developed world's shores because of, largely, the developed world's actions.
"The Case for Climate Reparations:
The world’s poorest will bear the worst consequences of the climate crisis. Redirecting international resources to address entrenched inequalities provides a way out."
Reparations? Disagree.
Rather than throwing huge sums at trying to fix the un-fixable, world leaders ought to be figuring out a way to absorb these unfortunate people into new home-countries, before they just plain drown. But "reparations" is a non-starter. ("We did a bad thing. Here, have some money." That's just silly. I'm not worried about amounts, it just seems to me that it's a bad-faith gesture. How much does forgiveness cost? You just cannot BUY it.) Repeating: immigration is not a BAD thing. Yet "developed" countries must work together with each other as well as the places toward which help is being extended. Anti-social behavior and terrorism cannot be tolerated. Hopefully, plots can be foiled before they hatch. And the identities of those involved can hopefully be discovered before they can do any harm.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/facing-dire-sea-level-rise-threat-maldives-turns/story?id=80929487
********************************************
"Still, the world has yet to officially recognize climate migrants or come up with formalized ways to assess their needs and help them." (From Lewis' PBS link.)
Just the point I made above.
********************************************
**************
**************
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strange_Death_of_Liberal_England
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strange_Death_of_Europe
***********************
Continual famine and drought? Over and over? Give humanitarian assistance to those people. But follow-through: help them to MOVE TO WHERE THERE IS FOOD! The sand is going to remain sand. What's the sand going to be in 100 years? SAND! Immigration is not bad. New entries need to be vetted much better than has been the case. That's all I'm saying. Political refugees are not the same as climate refugees, and neither of them are the same as economic refugees. Whether refugees or just plain immigrants, there are standards of social behavior, civic lessons and some sort of mainstreaming process that must be implemented. I don't mean indoctrination. But those coming from places where standards are NOT the same need to be made clear: some things we ALL have to abide by.
In other words what I'm saying is fanaticism of any sort is the enemy of democracy, but to presume that everyone coming from, say, an Islamic country is a potential terrorist is also toxic to democracy, to our fundamental belief in the individual will and tolerance for difference. It would be no different from assuming everyone coming from Ireland was a member of the Irish Republican Army or everyone from Italy belonged to the mafia when those immigrants faced discrimination. It also disavows the homegrown danger fanaticism poses in non-s...hole countries to democracy, i.e., Christian fanaticism here. See the Supreme Court.
The problem is if you are in a minority group, you are always painted with a broad brush by the majority--the literal definition of prejudice. If five young Syrian immigrants in Germany assault a woman, suddenly the majority says all Syrians are this way. Meanwhile, if five native Germans commit a similar crime, they are judged as individuals and the assumption is their actions do not reflect badly on all German people. This is why I have a problem with you, for instance, providing an example of the North African guy with the passport scam. Does that mean every North African refugee is doing that? Not anymore than every Irish refugee who came to the U.S. during the potato famine caused by British colonialism did this: So yes, I agree. Each refugee should be vetted, but based on their individual values and actions and the depth of their individual needs, not the country they come from. And yet, I would ask again, what will the U.S. do for growth without fresh young immigrants arriving at our shores? Our demographics are aging like Europe and Japan.
Many like Crash also treat a given situation (they hate our values, or whatever) as fixed and without modulation or indeed modulability. Families change as they prosper, if they do, and even if they don't. Kids go to school. Kids grow up and go online. Ooh, broadening (typically).
I suggest anyone who thinks as Crash does go watch several episodes of Finding Your Roots. At a high level it is similar stories over and over, regardless of arrival origin causes and motives.
Thank you for that well-thought out response. I read it earnestly. I smiled and recognized your mention of the (Mexican) St. Patrick's Brigade.
Maybe this is Too Much Information:
I have traveled in the Middle East. But it was in Jordan, only. It was delightful. The people there were friendly, smart, genuine. Of course it is a majority-Muslim country. But our group had a great time in Madaba, too--- a Christian town.
For me, it's not about religion. Not at all. And as a retired Minister, I lament the state of both mainstream Christianity as well as the ultra-Rightist nutjobs.
Douglas Murray's book ("The Strange Death of Europe") certainly did have an impact on me. And even WITHIN Europe, you have threats to a civilized democracy. A guy named Orban comes to mind. In the States, there are internal threats, too: The Trumpster, Boebert, MTG. But also some very un-famous people, too. I left my own hometown because it had become a high-crime area, and I was a victim 3 times in three years. Thankfully, it was not the sort of crime by which I was physically injured. Why do 99.9% of reported crimes back there involve Hispanics/Latinos? THERE'S a politically incorrect question that no one will touch. And in the case of those from Puerto Rico, they can freely come and go, because they are from a US Territory.
Potential threats exist within, already. Due notice should be made of that, as well as being on the lookout for whatever unwanted shit we might be importing. From anywhere.
Agreement is a pleasant thing, eh? Thanks again.
It has been suggested to me to recategorize this thread, which I am going to seriously consider, although we have very many threads here long strayed from their nominal titling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Massachusetts
Local news source:
https://www.wwlp.com/
Keep checking-in from day to day.
>> Why do 99.9% of reported crimes back there involve Hispanics/Latinos? THERE'S a politically incorrect question that no one will touch.
Your second sentence, you may be assured apart from the falseness of the first, gets touched all the time, and not only by Fox psychos but by pols and feds and cops and social workers and everyone else. You're trying to make it sound like some sort of coverup. Or excess PC. Or something.
If this GOP vision of the city's hell is due to fellow citizens from PR, though, where does that leave the immigration arguments? You could write a musical about it. As Maria puts it, I can kill now because I hate now.
PR folks don't really have to immigrate. By citizenship, they already do belong. I chafe at the small-minded arguments about the requirement for PR folks to learn more than basic English. Actually, my experience is that most of them do rather well with English. I told a guy at the gym: "As long as the USA is going to OWN that island, where SPANISH is spoken, we should expect to hear Spanish in our comings and goings."
Our economy is in a better spot with immigration policies that are sensible. there have always been limits, eh? I had to get special permission to take a position in Canada. They don't want jobs routinely being taken by non-Canadians, EH?
Vetting those who want to come here needs to be a process that is continually being improved. Communication between intelligence agencies, both domestic and foreign. Interpol. And all the rest. Not just with some nationalities in mind. But for Russian criminal oligarch mafia scum-pigs, too.
I would add the connection to gangs and crime--of a separate society in the immigrant community from the mainstream one that rejects the newcomers--has been the story pretty much of every first generation immigrant group. It's the reason why West Side Story and the Godfather still resonate for many viewers all of these years later. I think though what DavidrMoran brings up is that eventually most immigrants assimilate and grow in subsequent generations, so long as their children are given opportunities to educate themselves and improve their lives with better jobs. I maintain they are a vital part of the American story--from every country--and essential to our future economic growth.