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Hank Paulson on Inequality Gap: "We Were Making It Wider."
That's an interesting thought. If people were as mobile as products, I might be able to see that.
The thinking being that if employment costs (wages) were lower in one region (resulting in free trade imports from that region), then those workers could migrate to the higher cost (wage) region. But people are more "sticky" than products are.
Trivia - during the gold rush period, miners shipped their laundry to China, since it was cheaper than having it done locally. Gradually, Chinese arrived along with the stereotypical Chinese laundry.
Obviously human transport has gotten easier since then, but the same problem remains. People do not respond to geographic market differences as easily or as fast as production does. Consequently I'll take fair trade over free trade.
When the day comes that Dex contributes 5% of what msf has to this forum, I'll respect his opinion. Not particularly hopeful on that, though. Opinionated take-no-prisoners "I've had my say and that's the way it is" : total crap.
I wish there was a way to keep the hard working, aspirational immigrants here...even if they're "illegal"...and deport the bad apples only. As the grandchild of Polish immigrants (and I don't know if they were "legal" or not), I can tell you that all my grandparents wanted was a decent job and opportunity for their children. They didn't get any "entitlements"...they lived with relatives until they got on their feet financially. They lived in a Polish ghetto in the Detroit area. Because of this, my mother didn't speak any English until she started school (although she was born in the US), but she didn't get any special English classes...she had to "sink or swim". They lived in Detroit for the factory work...my grandfather worked days and my grandmother worked nights. My mother graduated from college by working during the day and going to school at night for many, many years...I attended her graduation as a 5 year old...and I still remember how bored I was! And yes, my grandparents sent money back to relatives in the "Old Country", even though they didn't have much themselves...I always saw it as generosity, not an impediment to the US economy.
I live in southwest Florida now and although the immigrants are not from Eastern Europe, and I am not personally connected to them, I see the same hard working, family oriented spirit that my grandparents had....the Hispanic landscapers at my golf course, who are up cutting the greens before dawn; my favorite Publix cashier from Barbados, who is always smiling and calls me "love"; the young rental car agent from Haiti, who told me six times in 10 minutes how grateful he is to live here; and my gorgeous male dentist from Brazil, who does some of my dental procedures for free because I don't have dental insurance. I see whole families shopping together at Walmart...the kids are always well-behaved. I've been told that after Hurricane Charley, the immigrants were who rebuilt the area...in record time.
If this is threatening to Americans, they need to step up their game. I do feel badly for the immigrants who wait for many, many years to come here legally...one of the most virulent anti-illegal immigration advocates I ever met was my Albanian painter, who came here legally after many years of trying, and who was futilely trying to get his father here, as well. As far as taxes and entitlements, switch from an income tax to a VAT....and deport the bad ones only!!
@MSF, "That's an interesting thought. If people were as mobile as products, I might be able to see that.The thinking being that if employment costs (wages) were lower in one region (resulting in free trade imports from that region), then those workers could migrate to the higher cost (wage) region. But people are more "sticky" than products are." That's exactly the problem I have with globalization. While I disagree, obviously, with those claiming immigration is harmful to the American economy, I actually agree with some of the same people that globalization and free trade are largely harmful to American workers. The thing is not only can products for the most part move freely across borders but so can capital. Capital is global while labor is mostly local. And that creates an uneven power relationship. It is essentially a buyer's market for labor where the seller of labor--the employee--has far less power than the buyer of labor--the employer. Unions historically were meant to counteract this uneven relationship in the U.S. via collective bargaining. But now that capital is global it often seeks out countries where labor is cheapest and weakest at negotiation. In China independent labor unions have up until recently been very weak and the government very harsh on strikers:aflcio.org/Issues/Trade/China/Labor-Rights-in-China That has begun to change and China's workforce has been seeing wage increases which could ultimately help U.S. workers. In fact, some argue the wage problem in the U.S. could naturally fix itself over time as the quality of life improves in China: bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-25/what-s-destroying-middle-class-wages-china I am less optimistic because I think as soon as wages rise enough in China, capital will merely move to the next low wage/weak labor country. The only way I can see wages not eroding in developed nations would be to try to equalize the power relationship between labor and capital. If capital is global, labor must be global too during wage negotiations. In other words, some form of truly global labor union. This of course is impossible right now as in some countries labor organizers can actually be thrown in jail or even killed for organizing. And capital by its nature seeking to maximize profits will move to those countries and it has the lobbying power and influence to prevent any changes to those regimes. So the U.S. labor market really is in a pickle.
"And capital by its nature seeking to maximize profits will move to those countries and it has the lobbying power and influence to prevent any changes to those regimes. So the U.S. labor market really is in a pickle. "
On Inequality Gap: "We Are Making It Wider:
"Not just "those countries" for capital seeking to maximize profits. The "you're a contractor, not an employee" game is being played right here, and in some respects has the potential for being even more harmful to labor than export to other countries. No health benefits, retirement, insurance, vacation, or workplace protection of any kind: "Go back to your sharecropper cottage when you finish your work. And don't call in sick again- we've got someone else ready to live in that cottage".
Because way sharper and more widely informed than you in this area, that's how. Plus I know what false premises are. But you can have the last word yet again.
Because way sharper and more widely informed than you in this area, that's how. Plus I know what false premises are. But you can have the last word yet again.
BS: Somebody actually paid you to ass-er-tain the obvious?
"Brilliant" no need to state the obvious - if everyone wrote that about my posts, it would become a distraction.
B.S. (Baccalaureus Scientiae) - how did you know? At the time I was working at NBC News and working towards my B.S. Desk Assistants logged the other nets so the execs. knew what was going on.
Going back in Fund Alarm time, does anyone remember the obnoxious poster "Bill". Does Dex come close in context, obnoxiousness, insecurity, or maybe... or maybe Bill came back.
Oh yes, Mike, I remember only all too well. Well, you know the old saying about apples and barrels... pretty much unavoidable. Been my observation that eventually they get tired of hearing themselves and they just go away. Unfortunately that's usually a long time after everyone else gets tired of hearing them. Hiring employees of this caliber explains a lot about the demise of network news though, doesn't it?
Comments
The thinking being that if employment costs (wages) were lower in one region (resulting in free trade imports from that region), then those workers could migrate to the higher cost (wage) region. But people are more "sticky" than products are.
Trivia - during the gold rush period, miners shipped their laundry to China, since it was cheaper than having it done locally. Gradually, Chinese arrived along with the stereotypical Chinese laundry.
Obviously human transport has gotten easier since then, but the same problem remains. People do not respond to geographic market differences as easily or as fast as production does. Consequently I'll take fair trade over free trade.
'that doesn't play' --- lolz, Dex. Are you still beating your falsely premised subjects?
I live in southwest Florida now and although the immigrants are not from Eastern Europe, and I am not personally connected to them, I see the same hard working, family oriented spirit that my grandparents had....the Hispanic landscapers at my golf course, who are up cutting the greens before dawn; my favorite Publix cashier from Barbados, who is always smiling and calls me "love"; the young rental car agent from Haiti, who told me six times in 10 minutes how grateful he is to live here; and my gorgeous male dentist from Brazil, who does some of my dental procedures for free because I don't have dental insurance. I see whole families shopping together at Walmart...the kids are always well-behaved. I've been told that after Hurricane Charley, the immigrants were who rebuilt the area...in record time.
If this is threatening to Americans, they need to step up their game. I do feel badly for the immigrants who wait for many, many years to come here legally...one of the most virulent anti-illegal immigration advocates I ever met was my Albanian painter, who came here legally after many years of trying, and who was futilely trying to get his father here, as well. As far as taxes and entitlements, switch from an income tax to a VAT....and deport the bad ones only!!
Love this quote...I plan to use it with my sons!
That's exactly the problem I have with globalization. While I disagree, obviously, with those claiming immigration is harmful to the American economy, I actually agree with some of the same people that globalization and free trade are largely harmful to American workers. The thing is not only can products for the most part move freely across borders but so can capital. Capital is global while labor is mostly local. And that creates an uneven power relationship. It is essentially a buyer's market for labor where the seller of labor--the employee--has far less power than the buyer of labor--the employer. Unions historically were meant to counteract this uneven relationship in the U.S. via collective bargaining. But now that capital is global it often seeks out countries where labor is cheapest and weakest at negotiation. In China independent labor unions have up until recently been very weak and the government very harsh on strikers:aflcio.org/Issues/Trade/China/Labor-Rights-in-China That has begun to change and China's workforce has been seeing wage increases which could ultimately help U.S. workers. In fact, some argue the wage problem in the U.S. could naturally fix itself over time as the quality of life improves in China: bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-25/what-s-destroying-middle-class-wages-china
I am less optimistic because I think as soon as wages rise enough in China, capital will merely move to the next low wage/weak labor country. The only way I can see wages not eroding in developed nations would be to try to equalize the power relationship between labor and capital. If capital is global, labor must be global too during wage negotiations. In other words, some form of truly global labor union. This of course is impossible right now as in some countries labor organizers can actually be thrown in jail or even killed for organizing. And capital by its nature seeking to maximize profits will move to those countries and it has the lobbying power and influence to prevent any changes to those regimes. So the U.S. labor market really is in a pickle.
On Inequality Gap: "We Are Making It Wider:
"Not just "those countries" for capital seeking to maximize profits. The "you're a contractor, not an employee" game is being played right here, and in some respects has the potential for being even more harmful to labor than export to other countries. No health benefits, retirement, insurance, vacation, or workplace protection of any kind: "Go back to your sharecropper cottage when you finish your work. And don't call in sick again- we've got someone else ready to live in that cottage".
Link:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obtuse
Wow, this turned into quite the thread, btw.
I'm trying to figure who the #5 is?
Guesses:
1. Maybe PBS?
2. Maybe Bloomberg? They seem fairly even-handed.
3. And I do credit CBS with a far superior evening news program than either NBC or ABC.
There is no real substantive difference among them.
Actually, I find no substantive difference among 99.9%. No, make that 99.999%.
BS: Somebody actually paid you to ass-er-tain the obvious?
B.S. (Baccalaureus Scientiae) - how did you know? At the time I was working at NBC News and working towards my B.S. Desk Assistants logged the other nets so the execs. knew what was going on.