Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
@TED (and anyone else who qualifies) Since I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word for it, search "recommended blood pressure over 80." Might want to back off a bit on those drugs. No data supports artificially lowering BP below 135 systolic in any age unless one has heart failure (or perhaps a thoracic aneurysm). Pretty far off topic, so i apologize.
Thanks for your very funny closing remark. I agree. Humor goes a long way to defusing a heated topic and encourages civil debate.
Your opening remark about open-mindedness and subsequent actions illustrate the common gap between what is said and what is actually done. This gap enters all human interactions. Sadly, Buyer beware holds court almost everywhere.
I don't interact with the Boglehead folks. In fact, I have never visited their website. Your comment will keep me away. It's a first order mistake to constrain free debate. Good decision making is made better when all alternate options are discussed. Sunshine eliminates the darkness.
Thanks again, and the best of luck on your investment decisions.
@TED (and anyone else who qualifies) Since I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word for it, search "recommended blood pressure over 80." Might want to back off a bit on those drugs. No data supports artificially lowering BP below 135 systolic in any age unless one has heart failure (or perhaps a thoracic aneurysm). Pretty far off topic, so i apologize.
I guess I'm compounding your faux pas by commenting here.
It may very well be true that medications for hypertension (or here, prehypertension) are overprescribed - the drug industry specifically, and the health industry in general have strong financial motivations to, well, push drugs.
But it's a leap to go from suggesting that consensus, or vast majority of studies, or whatever fail to support artificial lowering of BP below 135, to saying that no data supports efficacy of pharmacological treatment of prehypertension in reducing health risks.
It's easy enough to find counterexamples. (I make no claims as to the soundness of any tests done in producing the data, soundness of the analyses, etc., just that such data exists.)
As with my qualifications above, it starts out: Please note: This article was published more than one year ago. The facts and conclusions presented may have since changed and may no longer be accurate
The wire story then begins: THURSDAY, Dec. 8, 2011 (HealthDay News) -- A new study found that the risk of stroke dropped about 22 percent in people with prehypertension who took drugs that lower blood pressure.
(It goes on to say that any reduction observed in the risk of heart attacks was not statistically significant.)
"I ventured over to IDB expecting to find pro-Castro style economic advice. I was shocked, shocked that they have capitalist opinions. Fortunately I got my non-extremist pro-Castro OP over at Rollingstone. It helped me get my head straight as I then visited my broker's website to make money in non-capitalist socially responsible mutual funds."
@MFO Members: Its gratifying to see MFO Members concerned about my health. They realize that without the Linkster the MFO Discussion Board would become a run-of-the-mill boring site. However, keep the faith, the Linkster will do everything he can to keep his CHF & COPD under control with the proper medications. BP is now 110/71 Regards, Ted
Actually Ted seems to be well controlled. My doctor told me a couple of years ago that the old 120/80 standard for blood pressure is being rethought. Having a lower second number is considered better these days.
The old medical standards are being looked at. Good cholesterol levels for example used to go up to 240 or 250. Now, some physicians get concerned at 180. There are a number of formulas for determining your health which include the different types of cholesterol. Also, blood pressure takes into account the patient's history and family history as well.
There are some who will say this is all done for the pharma industry to get patients on medicines earlier. A good doctor will not prescribe unless he/she has a good reason besides the test result.
Going back to the start, yes, Grasshopper, you ARE naïve. I doubt that there is any print or digital media in the world that doesn't have it's politikal bias. C'est la vie.
IBD has long been a right wing leaning paper. If that bothers you, don't read the editorials.
The WSJ was pretty good until Ruppert bought it and now it's become the print version of Fox.
This is all why the God's gave us filters . . . to filter out the noise.
Geez, this thread goes back to the FundAlarm days with Gary Smith telling us to watch CNBC but without volume so you don't have to listen to the 'talking heads' that are one and all, speaking from position.
unless special situations, including diabetes (one STB65 does not happen to mention)
Thanks David. My point was that there's a big gap between "here are the recommendations du jour" and "there's no data supporting a different position".
I haven't looked into the objections, but JNC 8 (the JAMA report) was not received without significant dissent (though I don't know from whom).
The recommendations brought a firestorm of criticism, when they advised against using drugs to treat blood pressure as high as 150 over 90 in people 60 or older. Some said the committee of 17 academics that formulated the new guidelines took too narrow a focus on data from randomized trials.
Whether it's medical recommendations or fund analyses, it behooves one to read through the material to understand its scope, metrics, context, qualifications, etc. I haven't done that with this report, or prehypertension in general, so my comments are limited to how one would do that, and not with the substance itself.
Not a medical expert. Just a concerned 70 year old with some of the typically associated ailements who has looked intently at this "Right BP" question.
A major goal of lowering BP is to reduce wear and tear on the inner linings of blood vessels and arteries. This damage produces irregularities which allow for the accumulation of plaque and calcium, which attaches itself to the plaque (often termed "hardening of the arteries"). Of course, when portions of these deposits break loose and enter the bloodstream, stroke and heart attack often result. What I find is that, generally speaking, lower is better unless it results in unwanted symptoms. Light-headedness or fainting might signal that BP is too low.
60 Minutes aired an interesting two-part piece in May, 2014 on the "Living to 90 and Beyond." Title's a bit of a misnomer, as they actually studied the health records of 90 year-olds going back a decade or two. What struck me was the reference to alzenheimer-like symptoms due to "micro strokes" and the suspicion they voiced that these largely unnoticed occurrences might be related to low blood pressure in some elderly patients. Here's the full transcript. I believe there's also links to the CBS video if anyone wants to view. I watched some time ago and found it necessary at that time to install the 60 minutes app before I could view. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/living-to-90-and-beyond-60-minutes
Here's a small excerpt from that lengthy discussion. Note: In the excerpt, Stahal incorrectly refers to these as "mini strokes." They are not the same.
"These microscopic strokes are insidious because people don't even know they're having them.
Ronald Kim: They can be totally silent. And slowly but surely over time, you're picking off-- you're disconnecting your cortex from the rest of the brain and then you start to become demented. It can look just like Alzheimer disease clinically.
Lesley Stahl: Do you know anything we can do to prevent a-- these mini strokes?
Claudia Kawas: I wish I did. But I will soon, I hope.
Kawas suspects one thing that may cause them is low blood pressure, and she has some evidence. While none of the factors from the original Leisure World study -- vitamins, alcohol, caffeine, even exercise -- seemed to lower people's risk of getting dementia, the 90+ study discovered that high blood pressure did.
Claudia Kawas: If you have high blood pressure, it looks like your risk of dementia is lower--"
Not a medical expert. Just a concerned 70 year old with some of the typically associated ailements who has looked intently at this "Right BP" question.
A major goal of lowering BP is to reduce wear and tear on the inner linings of blood vessels and arteries. This damage produces irregularities which allow for the accumulation of plaque and calcium, which attaches itself to the plaque (often termed "hardening of the arteries"). Of course, when portions of these deposits break loose and enter the bloodstream, stroke and heart attack often result. What I find is that, generally speaking, lower is better unless it results in unwanted symptoms. Light-headedness or fainting might signal that BP is too low.
60 Minutes aired an interesting two-part piece in May, 2014 on the "Living to 90 and Beyond." Title's a bit of a misnomer, as they actually studied the health records of 90 year-olds going back a decade or two. What struck me was the reference to alzenheimer-like symptoms due to "micro strokes" and the suspicion they voiced that these largely unnoticed occurrences might be related to low blood pressure in some elderly patients. Here's the full transcript. I believe there's also links to the CBS video if anyone wants to view. I watched some time ago and found it necessary at that time to install the 60 minutes app before I could view. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/living-to-90-and-beyond-60-minutes
Here's a small excerpt from that lengthy discussion. Note: In the excerpt, Stahal incorrectly refers to these as "mini strokes." They are not the same.
"These microscopic strokes are insidious because people don't even know they're having them.
Ronald Kim: They can be totally silent. And slowly but surely over time, you're picking off-- you're disconnecting your cortex from the rest of the brain and then you start to become demented. It can look just like Alzheimer disease clinically.
Lesley Stahl: Do you know anything we can do to prevent a-- these mini strokes?
Claudia Kawas: I wish I did. But I will soon, I hope.
Kawas suspects one thing that may cause them is low blood pressure, and she has some evidence. While none of the factors from the original Leisure World study -- vitamins, alcohol, caffeine, even exercise -- seemed to lower people's risk of getting dementia, the 90+ study discovered that high blood pressure did.
Claudia Kawas: If you have high blood pressure, it looks like your risk of dementia is lower--"
Gee, thanks Hank, you really made my day. Just another thing to worry about in my old age. Albeit I guess I won't have any worries with dementia. The past 15 years or so my BP has averaged around 110/55 and often times that bottom number is lower. And that is without medication.
Chelsea should soon be old enough to run. And Jeb has a brother Neil who has not yet been Pres. I believe Jeb also has a son who's active in politics. Just thought you'd like to know.
PS - Loved Maurice's reference to his emails. Good sense of humor!
Thanks Hank. I feel much better now. Yes, Mo and I are on different parts (but not ends) of the spectrum but I enjoy his humor, and find myself in agreement with him more often than not.
Comments
Since I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word for it, search "recommended blood pressure over 80." Might want to back off a bit on those drugs.
No data supports artificially lowering BP below 135 systolic in any age unless one has heart failure (or perhaps a thoracic aneurysm).
Pretty far off topic, so i apologize.
Thanks for your very funny closing remark. I agree. Humor goes a long way to defusing a heated topic and encourages civil debate.
Your opening remark about open-mindedness and subsequent actions illustrate the common gap between what is said and what is actually done. This gap enters all human interactions. Sadly, Buyer beware holds court almost everywhere.
I don't interact with the Boglehead folks. In fact, I have never visited their website. Your comment will keep me away. It's a first order mistake to constrain free debate. Good decision making is made better when all alternate options are discussed. Sunshine eliminates the darkness.
Thanks again, and the best of luck on your investment decisions.
Best Wishes.
It may very well be true that medications for hypertension (or here, prehypertension) are overprescribed - the drug industry specifically, and the health industry in general have strong financial motivations to, well, push drugs.
But it's a leap to go from suggesting that consensus, or vast majority of studies, or whatever fail to support artificial lowering of BP below 135, to saying that no data supports efficacy of pharmacological treatment of prehypertension in reducing health risks.
It's easy enough to find counterexamples. (I make no claims as to the soundness of any tests done in producing the data, soundness of the analyses, etc., just that such data exists.)
A quick search turned up http://consumer.healthday.com/circulatory-system-information-7/blood-pressure-news-70/treating-prehypertension-lowers-stroke-risk-study-659664.html
As with my qualifications above, it starts out:
Please note: This article was published more than one year ago. The facts and conclusions presented may have since changed and may no longer be accurate
The wire story then begins:
THURSDAY, Dec. 8, 2011 (HealthDay News) -- A new study found that the risk of stroke dropped about 22 percent in people with prehypertension who took drugs that lower blood pressure.
(It goes on to say that any reduction observed in the risk of heart attacks was not statistically significant.)
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/18/3-things-to-know-about-the-new-blood-pressure-guidelines/
(note point 2 in particular)
later:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/with-blood-pressure-lower-is-not-always-better/
from
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1791497
unless special situations, including diabetes (one STB65 does not happen to mention)
Funniest post on this site in quite a while.
Regards,
Ted
The old medical standards are being looked at. Good cholesterol levels for example used to go up to 240 or 250. Now, some physicians get concerned at 180. There are a number of formulas for determining your health which include the different types of cholesterol. Also, blood pressure takes into account the patient's history and family history as well.
There are some who will say this is all done for the pharma industry to get patients on medicines earlier. A good doctor will not prescribe unless he/she has a good reason besides the test result.
Hope this helps.
Going back to the start, yes, Grasshopper, you ARE naïve. I doubt that there is any print or digital media in the world that doesn't have it's politikal bias. C'est la vie.
IBD has long been a right wing leaning paper. If that bothers you, don't read the editorials.
The WSJ was pretty good until Ruppert bought it and now it's become the print version of Fox.
This is all why the God's gave us filters . . . to filter out the noise.
Geez, this thread goes back to the FundAlarm days with Gary Smith telling us to watch CNBC but without volume so you don't have to listen to the 'talking heads' that are one and all, speaking from position.
and so it goes,
peace,
rono
I haven't looked into the objections, but JNC 8 (the JAMA report) was not received without significant dissent (though I don't know from whom). http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20140312/NEWS/303129948
Whether it's medical recommendations or fund analyses, it behooves one to read through the material to understand its scope, metrics, context, qualifications, etc. I haven't done that with this report, or prehypertension in general, so my comments are limited to how one would do that, and not with the substance itself.
A major goal of lowering BP is to reduce wear and tear on the inner linings of blood vessels and arteries. This damage produces irregularities which allow for the accumulation of plaque and calcium, which attaches itself to the plaque (often termed "hardening of the arteries"). Of course, when portions of these deposits break loose and enter the bloodstream, stroke and heart attack often result. What I find is that, generally speaking, lower is better unless it results in unwanted symptoms. Light-headedness or fainting might signal that BP is too low.
60 Minutes aired an interesting two-part piece in May, 2014 on the "Living to 90 and Beyond." Title's a bit of a misnomer, as they actually studied the health records of 90 year-olds going back a decade or two. What struck me was the reference to alzenheimer-like symptoms due to "micro strokes" and the suspicion they voiced that these largely unnoticed occurrences might be related to low blood pressure in some elderly patients. Here's the full transcript. I believe there's also links to the CBS video if anyone wants to view. I watched some time ago and found it necessary at that time to install the 60 minutes app before I could view. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/living-to-90-and-beyond-60-minutes
Here's a small excerpt from that lengthy discussion. Note: In the excerpt, Stahal incorrectly refers to these as "mini strokes." They are not the same.
"These microscopic strokes are insidious because people don't even know they're having them.
Ronald Kim: They can be totally silent. And slowly but surely over time, you're picking off-- you're disconnecting your cortex from the rest of the brain and then you start to become demented. It can look just like Alzheimer disease clinically.
Lesley Stahl: Do you know anything we can do to prevent a-- these mini strokes?
Claudia Kawas: I wish I did. But I will soon, I hope.
Kawas suspects one thing that may cause them is low blood pressure, and she has some evidence. While none of the factors from the original Leisure World study -- vitamins, alcohol, caffeine, even exercise -- seemed to lower people's risk of getting dementia, the 90+ study discovered that high blood pressure did.
Claudia Kawas: If you have high blood pressure, it looks like your risk of dementia is lower--"
Regards,
Ted
Of course there are more "choices".
Chelsea should soon be old enough to run. And Jeb has a brother Neil who has not yet been Pres. I believe Jeb also has a son who's active in politics. Just thought you'd like to know.
PS - Loved Maurice's reference to his emails. Good sense of humor!