Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
There is a lot to be said for buying a pre- owned car from the dealer that has gone through a thorough inspection and has available a history. Honda and Toyota as well as most of the others have this.
With that said, I have also bought new and ran the vehicle until it fell apart.
@Kaspa, Still driving a 1992 Honda Civic with 200K miles - remarkable reliability! Before we bought 2011 Odyssey minivan, we did fair amount of research on both crash test and mechanical reliability and came back to Honda again. European cars are nice but expensive to maintain with average reliability. Have rented Hyundai and Kia in vacation (economical to run) but don't have experience on reliability.
Thanks everyone. My 2001 Accord is doing fine now, but around 100k miles, it had problem with engine oil leak. Head gasket replacement did not fix it. Turned out to be an issue with porous engine block. Looks like that was not an uncommon issue. http://repairpal.com/porous-engine-block-casting-may-cause-engine-oil-leaks-529 Had to replace engine (a used one), but have now driven it another 40k. Over the length of my holding, there were no other major issues.
I like used cars and my wife likes new cars...c'est la vie.
I bought a new car in 2013 b/c the used car market was so tight (as a result of the 2008/2009 recession) that used cars were expensive. As I understand it auto makers output has been increasing and used cars may be a better option now. Used cars have come a long way and are much more reliable than they used to be.
I really liked my Mazda3 and never had any problems with it. A mazda 6 could be a nice option for you, but I don't think the rear sears are as roomy as say a Camry.
You really ought to consider a Hyundai Sonata as it is now competitive with the camry and accord. The 2015 model is now out. That would be my vote (if I am understanding your requirements)! It is a solid car and you won't pay the premium for the Toyota name.
@Kaspa, Still driving a 1992 Honda Civic with 200K miles - remarkable reliability! Before we bought 2011 Odyssey minivan, we did fair amount of research on both crash test and mechanical reliability and came back to Honda again. European cars are nice but expensive to maintain with average reliability. Have rented Hyundai and Kia in vacation (economical to run) but don't have experience on reliability.
I have been in 3 auto accidents. None my fault. Not acts of God. Acts of shamelessness and/or stupidity of others. Each of them has its own story and could really have been fatal. The last one last year left me with a fractured sternum.
The first two were in a Civic. The second not as bad as first, but because car was old, insurance totaled it. The first was when my car was new and I practically got a repaired new car.
The third and last one was in an Odyssey. Van was totaled and you didn't need insurance company to tell you that. I survived albeit with 2 months of down time because of my injury, but if I was driving a car, ANY car instead of a van, I wouldn't be typing this.
Moral of the story, Honda has saved my life at least 2 of the 3 times. WTF am I asking stupid questions for? I'll look for a Honda.
PS. Incidently I now have a Toyota Sienna because when I went to buy Honda Odyssey again, I couldn't find any at the local dealers. My wife drives a Camry.
They've all done a nice job with quality over the past 10 years. Everybody's got their favorite brand I guess. Japan taught us a lesson in the 80s and 90s when many American consumers refused any longer to buy the junk and gas guzzlers U.S. car makers were turning out and turned to the than clearly superior imports.
BTW: The new Ford F-150 has an all aluminum body. It's said Alan Mulally's earlier work at Boeing prepared him for this transition - as the stuff is a lot harder to work with than steel. (Notice how quiet Ford kept Alan Mulally's departure. No fanfare or celebrations)
I asked a local body-shop operator about the aluminum truck and he wasn't too thrilled. Unhappy about the hours of special training his crew requires and the new expensive equipment they'd have to purchase. A lot more time & trouble to do repairs. (One wonders how that will impact insurance rates.) Surprised me by saying that the new vehicles will still corrode over time, as aluminum isn't immune to such deterioration from road salts, etc.
ILX is similar to Civic.TSX is similar to European Accord (a bit smaller). TL is similar to Accord. In 2014, Honda merged TSX and TL into a single model TLX. Most mechanics love TL model.very reliable.MDX and RDX also have good rating.
Thanks for the feedback. As many of you mentioned, my usual suspects were sticking with Accord, or checking Camry, Altima. Was also searching certified cars and have come across some interesting options Accura TSX 2013, 14k miles (a little over $23k) and a Volvo S60 T5 premier 2012, 33k miles ($22k). Any experince with these? Acura is Honda's cousin, so I expect similar reliability. Never had a Volvo, but looks like an interesting alternative. Assume higher maintenance cost though.
Have been reading this thread the last few days and had to chuckle that an off topic one got the most views and comments lately. Guess many are tired of talking about just the market recently and its wild swings. Here is my two cents: 2 years ago bought a Toyota Highlander using Costco's car buying program. Dealer cost plus $300 . Had gone to the dealer and tried to bargain, and did not get close to that price. Walked away and came back with Costco's deal, which they had to honor,they had to sell it to me for that price.
"aluminum isn't immune to such deterioration from road salts, etc. "
Hey Hank- No, it certainly is not. Living pretty close to the Pacific ocean, we've had lots of experience with aluminum in a mildly salty environment- window frames, TV antennas, and so forth. Really bad news, unless it has been anodized (a protective electrolytic process) and even then the deterioration is significant.
Good point about the insurance rates.
Slick- thanks for the reminder about the Costco program. I'll keep that in mind for next time.
I am not a "used car buyer". I'm very afraid. I just buy new but within my budget. However now, I have an almost 16 year old, and was looking for a used reliable car. Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Nissan Sentra come to mind, but anyone has any suggestions?
Its done by zip code, and its for all cars, boats and motorcycles. I don't know if all dealers participate, but I would imagine its to their advantage to, based on the number of Costco customers.
Sorry to resurrect this whole thread, but since everyone was so helpful, I wanted to let everyone know where I ended up. Just bought a new Camry XSE yesterday, nice black exterior and a lighter dual color interior. Came down to a decision between an Accord and Camry as usual. Small differences tilted my decision towards Camry (a little better reliability of my Corolla vs. Accord, a little quieter, a little better deal pricewise, staying with a conventional automatic vs. a newer CVT transmission, two-year free regular maintenance, a little better new grad discount $750 vs. $500). Accord handling is a little better but Camry's SE and XSE trims have reduced the difference. A recent rental turned out to be a Camry SE, which we drove to Northern California for a total drive of about 16 hours round-trip. It was very comfortable and sufficiently responsive for our needs.
Looks like a complicated/refined version of a belt going over two pulleys of changing diameters. Not a mechanical engineer here, but I think the advantages are you can keep the rpm essentially unchanged as you speed up, and not have discrete gear shifts as you step through. Better mileage, possibility of getting higher torque at lower rpm. During driving CVT seems fine, although it is a funny feeling not feeling the gear shift. However, a lot of folks had troubles with CVTs in their various iterations by other manufacturers (as well as Honda). Just google CVT issues and you will find many complaints. Over a period of time, I am sure CVTs would improve (or may already have improved), but I am not the one to find out in its first year or two at Honda.
I won't be in the market for several years, but if I do move away from manual, so far it looks like DCT is the current best option. It seems to be closest to manual transmission in road feel and control, albeit complaints with some systems (notably American versions) have been jerkiness at low speeds.
In the 90s, Tiptronic seemed like a possibility, but that may have been more good marketing of traditional automatic transmissions than a real clutchless manual.
Here's an interesting video comparing the behaviour and sound of automatic, CVT, DCT, and manual transmissions. This is pushing the cars for acceleration; different types of transmissions do better at different tasks. To my ears, the manual still sounds best.
(On the CVT, you can see how accelerating pins the engine at redline, and continuously alters the gear ratio to increase the speed.)
I don't know if this is something usually attributed to cvt transmissions but I found performance lagging when trying to accelerate into a freeway or a passing maneuver. When I kicked down the accelerator, there was a moment of nothing before the cvt kicked in. On a regular automatic, the response seemed much quicker. I have driven two different car makes with cvt and they both felt the same.
I like the feel of manual, but this is a family car to be shared by others who don't quite share the same views. I had heard about dual clutch, but never got to test it. Had tried CVT on the Hondas and Nissans.
@Kaspa...wondering if recent lower gas prices came into your decision making?
My thought is that a driver spent considerably more money driving a less efficient car at last year's higher gas prices compared to today's newer, more efficient, car at today's lower gas prices.
Here's some math: If I drove 12,000 mile last year with an older car getting 20 MPG at $4/gal (last year's prices) I spent $2400 / yr on fuel.
If I buy a newer car that gets 30 MPG, at today's gas prices of $2.50 / gal I will spend $1000 this year on fuel. This is a $1400 fuel savings. These savings might not buy a new car, but might offset a portion of a monthly lease or monthly car loan payment. I can imagine that drivers who didn't "cash in their clunker" (remember that QE program) may now be ready to consider the purchase of a newer car.
Disclosure: I drive many cars. A 1991 Camry, 1991 Miata, 1995 Lexus and a 1960 Rambler American (retirement project car). I rotate cars like clothing...seasonally, so I'm not a good example of a typical drivers.
Rigged numbers, i.e. not an apples-to-apples comparison.
This year, using the old car would still consume 600 gallons of gasoline, but that would cost only $1500. So the actual fuel savings (replace vs. continue using) would be just $500/year. The lower the price of gasoline, the less important a difference in fuel economy becomes.
If people start replacing cars now, it is more likely due to an improving economy, and feeling better about spending. (Reduced gasoline prices add to that feeling, so in that sense, lower gasoline prices can spur replacement.)
BTW, I like the Miata. We used to drive a first generation MR2 - similar weight and feel. Until nearly every electrical system broke down simultaneously - truly a nervous (system) breakdown.
Better mileage was just one factor in my decision making. Cars have definitely improved over the years. The decision to buy was mainly because my Accord is over 14 years old now. Even though these cars go for a long time, maintenance slowly creeps up. A newer car is a little more comfortable as we get older. Also as msf states, economy is generally getting better, leading to a little more bias towards spending. Still not ready to splurge though.
Awhile back,I told my mechanic I was going to Sell my 2002 Grand Prix (no longer in production) He said how much you want,I'll write you a check...... I'm still driving it...like a dream
I'm a strong believer in Honda products, excellent quality/reliability, fun to drive, and are constructed to be safe. I'd go for an Accord, and as a second choice Toyota Camry.
Hank: When we were Kids the guy across the street got one of the first T-bird, hard top convertibles (year?)...we thought it was like a rocket ship, never forget that top going down,and him driving off in his convertible.....unbelievable
Car leasing & financing (bond like income). Manufacturers (integrated Tech). Fuel systems (Energy sector). Auto Collectibles (mobile precious metals...precious as in "69 Camaro) Car tourism (rentals...B&B...restaurants).
Comments
With that said, I have also bought new and ran the vehicle until it fell apart.
Still driving a 1992 Honda Civic with 200K miles - remarkable reliability! Before we bought 2011 Odyssey minivan, we did fair amount of research on both crash test and mechanical reliability and came back to Honda again. European cars are nice but expensive to maintain with average reliability. Have rented Hyundai and Kia in vacation (economical to run) but don't have experience on reliability.
an issue with porous engine block. Looks like that was not an uncommon issue.
http://repairpal.com/porous-engine-block-casting-may-cause-engine-oil-leaks-529
Had to replace engine (a used one), but have now driven it another 40k. Over the length of my holding, there were no other major issues.
I bought a new car in 2013 b/c the used car market was so tight (as a result of the 2008/2009 recession) that used cars were expensive. As I understand it auto makers output has been increasing and used cars may be a better option now. Used cars have come a long way and are much more reliable than they used to be.
I really liked my Mazda3 and never had any problems with it. A mazda 6 could be a nice option for you, but I don't think the rear sears are as roomy as say a Camry.
You really ought to consider a Hyundai Sonata as it is now competitive with the camry and accord. The 2015 model is now out. That would be my vote (if I am understanding your requirements)! It is a solid car and you won't pay the premium for the Toyota name.
The first two were in a Civic. The second not as bad as first, but because car was old, insurance totaled it. The first was when my car was new and I practically got a repaired new car.
The third and last one was in an Odyssey. Van was totaled and you didn't need insurance company to tell you that. I survived albeit with 2 months of down time because of my injury, but if I was driving a car, ANY car instead of a van, I wouldn't be typing this.
Moral of the story, Honda has saved my life at least 2 of the 3 times. WTF am I asking stupid questions for? I'll look for a Honda.
PS. Incidently I now have a Toyota Sienna because when I went to buy Honda Odyssey again, I couldn't find any at the local dealers. My wife drives a Camry.
BTW: The new Ford F-150 has an all aluminum body. It's said Alan Mulally's earlier work at Boeing prepared him for this transition - as the stuff is a lot harder to work with than steel. (Notice how quiet Ford kept Alan Mulally's departure. No fanfare or celebrations)
I asked a local body-shop operator about the aluminum truck and he wasn't too thrilled. Unhappy about the hours of special training his crew requires and the new expensive equipment they'd have to purchase. A lot more time & trouble to do repairs. (One wonders how that will impact insurance rates.) Surprised me by saying that the new vehicles will still corrode over time, as aluminum isn't immune to such deterioration from road salts, etc.
Derf
Hey Hank- No, it certainly is not. Living pretty close to the Pacific ocean, we've had lots of experience with aluminum in a mildly salty environment- window frames, TV antennas, and so forth. Really bad news, unless it has been anodized (a protective electrolytic process) and even then the deterioration is significant.
Good point about the insurance rates.
Slick- thanks for the reminder about the Costco program. I'll keep that in mind for next time.
Its done by zip code, and its for all cars, boats and motorcycles. I don't know if all dealers participate, but I would imagine its to their advantage to, based on the number of Costco customers.
happy New Year, Derf
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
I tend to favor the traditional automatics as well. The CVTs I have driven sound buzzy and are not as refined as a good automatic.
@Kaspa, that Camry is an excellent choice. I have driven one also as a rental and it was by far the most comfortable drive I have had.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm
Looks like a complicated/refined version of a belt going over two pulleys of changing diameters. Not a mechanical engineer here, but I think the advantages are you can keep the rpm essentially unchanged as you speed up, and not have discrete gear shifts as you step through. Better mileage, possibility of getting higher torque at lower rpm. During driving CVT seems fine, although it is a funny feeling not feeling the gear shift. However, a lot of folks had troubles with CVTs in their various iterations by other manufacturers (as well as Honda). Just google CVT issues and you will find many complaints. Over a period of time, I am sure CVTs would improve (or may already have improved), but I am not the one to find out in its first year or two at Honda.
In the 90s, Tiptronic seemed like a possibility, but that may have been more good marketing of traditional automatic transmissions than a real clutchless manual.
Here's an interesting video comparing the behaviour and sound of automatic, CVT, DCT, and manual transmissions. This is pushing the cars for acceleration; different types of transmissions do better at different tasks. To my ears, the manual still sounds best.
(On the CVT, you can see how accelerating pins the engine at redline, and continuously alters the gear ratio to increase the speed.)
The video is followed by another explaining CVT.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=nFdLrPp3kpE
My thought is that a driver spent considerably more money driving a less efficient car at last year's higher gas prices compared to today's newer, more efficient, car at today's lower gas prices.
Here's some math:
If I drove 12,000 mile last year with an older car getting 20 MPG at $4/gal (last year's prices) I spent $2400 / yr on fuel.
If I buy a newer car that gets 30 MPG, at today's gas prices of $2.50 / gal I will spend $1000 this year on fuel. This is a $1400 fuel savings. These savings might not buy a new car, but might offset a portion of a monthly lease or monthly car loan payment. I can imagine that drivers who didn't "cash in their clunker" (remember that QE program) may now be ready to consider the purchase of a newer car.
Disclosure:
I drive many cars. A 1991 Camry, 1991 Miata, 1995 Lexus and a 1960 Rambler American (retirement project car). I rotate cars like clothing...seasonally, so I'm not a good example of a typical drivers.
This year, using the old car would still consume 600 gallons of gasoline, but that would cost only $1500. So the actual fuel savings (replace vs. continue using) would be just $500/year. The lower the price of gasoline, the less important a difference in fuel economy becomes.
If people start replacing cars now, it is more likely due to an improving economy, and feeling better about spending. (Reduced gasoline prices add to that feeling, so in that sense, lower gasoline prices can spur replacement.)
BTW, I like the Miata. We used to drive a first generation MR2 - similar weight and feel. Until nearly every electrical system broke down simultaneously - truly a nervous (system) breakdown.
The Grand Prix (and sister Monte Carlo) are a couple I wish I'd owned and didn't. The other would be one of the big "cushy" T-Birds from the 70s-90s.
Confucius Say: He who hesitates is lost.
Car leasing & financing (bond like income).
Manufacturers (integrated Tech).
Fuel systems (Energy sector).
Auto Collectibles (mobile precious metals...precious as in "69 Camaro)
Car tourism (rentals...B&B...restaurants).
O.K., maybe just buy SPY