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I lived in Taiwan for 2 years (1968/1969) and there was no regard at that time for any copyright. As technology was not then, what it is today; but one could buy any of the most recent best seller books within a few months after release in the U.S. Note: This period was during a government put in place after WWII. Overall, however; this is and/or was the nature of this part of Asia and its thinking. Another part of one's experiences and how it may relate to considerations about contemporary political and investment knowledge. China has been copying/borrowing ideas "stuff" for a very, very long time.
I don't think you're being fair to Taiwan. While you acknowledge that you were there decades ago, you suggest that lack of respect for property is both cultural and insurmountable. The latter is clearly not true. A couple of decades ago, it was still pretty easy to buy books at "bargain prices". You were looking for best sellers - I was looking for texts in stores around the University. But I haven't seen these "bargains" for many years there.
Remember that Taiwan was under marshal law until 1987 - decades after you left. Taiwan was even still the "official" government of China as recognized by the UN back when you were there. So much has changed. Only in the past few years, as the older generation has gradually died out has there been much discussion of Taiwan's relationship to mainland China. I don't mean to oversimplify here, because there are a lot of different factors at play - cultural, political, ethnic, etc.
While there are very real, very major differences between the mainland and Taiwan, consider that it has only been a few years since direct travel between the two was opened up, and Taiwan began investing heavily in mainland China. We'll have to wait to see what effect that will have.
Reply to @msf: catch was clearly talking about the situation 40+ years ago. In many ways, China now is like Taiwan back then. Except that China is 50+ times bigger, and its practices have an even bigger impact.
I am not attempting to be unfair with/for Taiwan. For the current period, I should have indicated that my thoughts today are directed at mainland China.
I only stated what I saw and was aware of in this area.
Past this, I found a deep affection for the country and the people. I still have the university pamphlet and an application, not sent; for National Taiwan Normal University. That plan had to be diverted and eventually dropped.
And yes, I am aware of the history of the country from the 1890's when Japan enjoyed their rule there until the end of WWII. Although there were some restraints in place towards the citizens of Taiwan in the 1960's, by the end of the 60's; there began to be new thoughts coming into play in the country. I find at least 3 critical aspects to the growth of Taiwan: During the late 60's a tax free zone for foreign businesses was established in the southern areas; students traveled and studied outside of Taiwan (many at the U of M, MSU and MTU in Michigan) and the end of the brain drain. Enough of the overseas students began to return to Taiwan and continued to use their engineering and other professional skills to help reshape and build what Taiwan is today. I still recall the periodic alerts of "attack" where there were curfews and the streets were full of military personnel and vehicles of every type. The 50's and 60's in particular continued to be a high tension period between Taiwan and mainland China; as Chiang Kai-shek and Mao were both still involved with some of the power in government. And of course during this period and somewhat into the past 2 decades; Taiwan had full support of and interconnection with of military and government.
And yes, this was and remains a very complex area of the globe. As a young, pup of a person when I first arrived in Taiwan; I was of course fascinated by many areas. I did take the time to understand some of what I observed. One particular area involved some of the elders related to some of the young Taiwanese people my age with whom I became friends. Some of the elder heritage was aboriginal (native Taiwanese); and these folks spoke their native dialete language, as well as Japanese and Mandarin chinese. Whoa! In time, I discovered why through the history of the island country. I found the same during a stay in Morocco. Of course, much of this is related to the many countries around the globe that have and had been colonialized by others.
For the matter of anything global from the earliest traders upon the seas and the land routes to China; heck, everyone and his brother were stealing and/or borrowing ideas and technology (pre-copyright).
I apologize if my original statement offended you or others who visit here. I should not have been so hasty with my thoughts or words.
Hi claimui, I placed a reply to msf to offer a few more thoughts and a broad apology if I offended anyone with my too broad of a statement concerning Taiwan. It was a wonderful place to live (Taipei) and learn; and I wish that I had an opportunity, money and time to revisit. I suspect from current internet views of Taipei, I would not recognize very much. While writing this I could recall my long assembly of words giving directions home to the apartment in Taipei. I don't recall much Chinese or Taiwanese language today; but used taxi directions hunderds of times.....:):):) Regards, Catch
I'm afraid that a closer inspection of history will reveal that there is absolutely nothing new, original, or remarkable about this sort of "intellectual theft", nor by any stretch of the imagination is it restrained to Asia nor any other particular geographic or ethnic area.
"The first factory in the United States was begun after George Washington became President. In 1790, Samuel Slater, a cotton spinner's apprentice who left England the year before with the secrets of textile machinery, built a factory from memory to produce spindles of yarn."
In a recent thread I mentioned the byzantine early history of the RCA Victor recording company. Check that out on Wickipedia if you need any further examples of underhanded, conniving commercial thievery.
For a more recent example, how about Microsoft vs Apple and who can remember how many other smaller companies? Nothing new here folks... nothing to see here... please move along...
Before you throw my arse out the door and lock the lock on this............... I recall research over the years for selling items in online auctions; and always attempting to provide excellent details and background about the objects. In point were several hand filled paper vouchers from several MI railroads from 1848. Several were the form of a modern check with which to pay person X. These were signed by two people. Doing research into old documents about the names involved, including the railroad name led me down paths to many court cases. I.E.; two little railroads get into a fight about whatever and a bigger, rich railroad moves to take them both. But, another bigger, richer railroad does the same to the last. Not that we don't know that there wasn't a lot of nasty deeds taking place during the early industrial era of this country; but to read the old court cases was most fascinating. Some things never change, eh? I also found many numerous similar court cases and funny business related to the large timber and mining actions in MI.
Note: I am not an attorney, nor do I act as one in a tv series or motion picture; however, my real life is to watch and attempt to think with reason, fail or not.
Reply to @Old_Joe: I am sorry but there is a huge difference here. One is copying the technology by imitation and other is outright theft. I am sorry but there is outright theft of our future going on on a large scale now that we are no longer a manufacturing society and our future depends on intellectual property.
A few days ago, I read an article how Chinese hackers have systematically stolen now bankrupt Nortel Network technology.
I also do not like classifying these as borrowing. With borrowing the lender is supposed to get back what he gave out. He has full knowledge of the other person and the the intentions. He expects to get it back roughly in the same condition if not better. This is outright theft and there is no need to sugar coat it.
A fine point that, imitation vs theft. But valid. Also, with regard to China we have in addition to the normal commercial chicanery, what amounts to an officially tolerated (if not sponsored) systematic government policy, which takes things to a new level of duplicity and concern. No question regarding the question of scale.
Previous comments meant merely to point out that the concept is as old as mankind.
I'm sorry if I came across sounding harsher than I meant. The only statement I was reacting to was the suggestion that this is (though you did add "and/or was") the thinking of east Asia. While certainly cultures are different, a I feel a lot is universal. Emerging countries in general may be more likely to engage in "corporate espionage" simply because from their vantage point, there is more to "appropriate". As a county "catches up" (no pun intended), there's less around that's way ahead of them to grab.
Look at all the fuss made in the US over the supposed theft of Goldman Sachs HFT code. (The theft was real, but the US citizen accused of the theft was released on a technicality - that what was stolen was for internal use and thus didn't fall under the definition of theft of a product intended for sale.) Economic espionage takes place everywhere. It's more, well, economic, than cultural IMHO.
Kudos for the mention of native Taiwanese (often ignored) in the cultural mix. My understanding is that mass return of professionals to Taiwan really started in the 80s, as Taiwan (I suppose like the US) served a fertile area for startups. These days, Taiwan companies are moving "offshore" to mainland China, and face the same problems that US companies do in terms of protecting IP there.
Anyway, thanks for a bit more insight into your background and appreciation of the world cultures.
Reply to @Old_Joe: Yes. The world at large worries about what is Legal and never about what is Moral. If one cannot legally prove anything, and / or, it can be deemed as "cost of doing business", people will steal, plunder and plagiarize to high heaven.
Comments
Note: This period was during a government put in place after WWII. Overall, however; this is and/or was the nature of this part of Asia and its thinking. Another part of one's experiences and how it may relate to considerations about contemporary political and investment knowledge. China has been copying/borrowing ideas "stuff" for a very, very long time.
Regards,
Catch
Remember that Taiwan was under marshal law until 1987 - decades after you left. Taiwan was even still the "official" government of China as recognized by the UN back when you were there. So much has changed. Only in the past few years, as the older generation has gradually died out has there been much discussion of Taiwan's relationship to mainland China. I don't mean to oversimplify here, because there are a lot of different factors at play - cultural, political, ethnic, etc.
While there are very real, very major differences between the mainland and Taiwan, consider that it has only been a few years since direct travel between the two was opened up, and Taiwan began investing heavily in mainland China. We'll have to wait to see what effect that will have.
I am not attempting to be unfair with/for Taiwan. For the current period, I should have indicated that my thoughts today are directed at mainland China.
I only stated what I saw and was aware of in this area.
Past this, I found a deep affection for the country and the people.
I still have the university pamphlet and an application, not sent; for National Taiwan Normal University. That plan had to be diverted and eventually dropped.
And yes, I am aware of the history of the country from the 1890's when Japan enjoyed their rule there until the end of WWII.
Although there were some restraints in place towards the citizens of Taiwan in the 1960's, by the end of the 60's; there began to be new thoughts coming into play in the country. I find at least 3 critical aspects to the growth of Taiwan: During the late 60's a tax free zone for foreign businesses was established in the southern areas; students traveled and studied outside of Taiwan (many at the U of M, MSU and MTU in Michigan) and the end of the brain drain. Enough of the overseas students began to return to Taiwan and continued to use their engineering and other professional skills to help reshape and build what Taiwan is today.
I still recall the periodic alerts of "attack" where there were curfews and the streets were full of military personnel and vehicles of every type. The 50's and 60's in particular continued to be a high tension period between Taiwan and mainland China; as Chiang Kai-shek and Mao were both still involved with some of the power in government. And of course during this period and somewhat into the past 2 decades; Taiwan had full support of and interconnection with of military and government.
And yes, this was and remains a very complex area of the globe. As a young, pup of a person when I first arrived in Taiwan; I was of course fascinated by many areas. I did take the time to understand some of what I observed. One particular area involved some of the elders related to some of the young Taiwanese people my age with whom I became friends. Some of the elder heritage was aboriginal (native Taiwanese); and these folks spoke their native dialete language, as well as Japanese and Mandarin chinese. Whoa! In time, I discovered why through the history of the island country. I found the same during a stay in Morocco. Of course, much of this is related to the many countries around the globe that have and had been colonialized by others.
For the matter of anything global from the earliest traders upon the seas and the land routes to China; heck, everyone and his brother were stealing and/or borrowing ideas and technology (pre-copyright).
I apologize if my original statement offended you or others who visit here. I should not have been so hasty with my thoughts or words.
Regards,
Catch
I placed a reply to msf to offer a few more thoughts and a broad apology if I offended anyone with my too broad of a statement concerning Taiwan. It was a wonderful place to live (Taipei) and learn; and I wish that I had an opportunity, money and time to revisit. I suspect from current internet views of Taipei, I would not recognize very much. While writing this I could recall my long assembly of words giving directions home to the apartment in Taipei. I don't recall much Chinese or Taiwanese language today; but used taxi directions hunderds of times.....:):):)
Regards,
Catch
By way of just one example, that's exactly what the US did:
"The first factory in the United States was begun after George Washington became President. In 1790, Samuel Slater, a cotton spinner's apprentice who left England the year before with the secrets of textile machinery, built a factory from memory to produce spindles of yarn."
In a recent thread I mentioned the byzantine early history of the RCA Victor recording company. Check that out on Wickipedia if you need any further examples of underhanded, conniving commercial thievery.
For a more recent example, how about Microsoft vs Apple and who can remember how many other smaller companies? Nothing new here folks... nothing to see here... please move along...
Before you throw my arse out the door and lock the lock on this...............
I recall research over the years for selling items in online auctions; and always attempting to provide excellent details and background about the objects. In point were several hand filled paper vouchers from several MI railroads from 1848. Several were the form of a modern check with which to pay person X. These were signed by two people. Doing research into old documents about the names involved, including the railroad name led me down paths to many court cases.
I.E.; two little railroads get into a fight about whatever and a bigger, rich railroad moves to take them both. But, another bigger, richer railroad does the same to the last. Not that we don't know that there wasn't a lot of nasty deeds taking place during the early industrial era of this country; but to read the old court cases was most fascinating. Some things never change, eh? I also found many numerous similar court cases and funny business related to the large timber and mining actions in MI.
Note: I am not an attorney, nor do I act as one in a tv series or motion picture; however, my real life is to watch and attempt to think with reason, fail or not.
Past this, I am just one of the regular folks.
Take care,
Catch
I'll take that one as a compliment; knowing that I am abnormally normal, as is most of the world populace.
Catch
A few days ago, I read an article how Chinese hackers have systematically stolen now bankrupt Nortel Network technology.
I also do not like classifying these as borrowing. With borrowing the lender is supposed to get back what he gave out. He has full knowledge of the other person and the the intentions. He expects to get it back roughly in the same condition if not better. This is outright theft and there is no need to sugar coat it.
Previous comments meant merely to point out that the concept is as old as mankind.
I'm sorry if I came across sounding harsher than I meant. The only statement I was reacting to was the suggestion that this is (though you did add "and/or was") the thinking of east Asia. While certainly cultures are different, a I feel a lot is universal. Emerging countries in general may be more likely to engage in "corporate espionage" simply because from their vantage point, there is more to "appropriate". As a county "catches up" (no pun intended), there's less around that's way ahead of them to grab.
Look at all the fuss made in the US over the supposed theft of Goldman Sachs HFT code. (The theft was real, but the US citizen accused of the theft was released on a technicality - that what was stolen was for internal use and thus didn't fall under the definition of theft of a product intended for sale.) Economic espionage takes place everywhere. It's more, well, economic, than cultural IMHO.
Kudos for the mention of native Taiwanese (often ignored) in the cultural mix. My understanding is that mass return of professionals to Taiwan really started in the 80s, as Taiwan (I suppose like the US) served a fertile area for startups. These days, Taiwan companies are moving "offshore" to mainland China, and face the same problems that US companies do in terms of protecting IP there.
Anyway, thanks for a bit more insight into your background and appreciation of the world cultures.