The recent thread below has some "poo-poo" comments cited. Why? Is this not a learning forum? Is this forum
mostly read/posters by those over 50 years of age and no longer have a need or desire to learn much? I don't know the personal answer. I wish that an incognito survey could be performed here to identify age brackets of members over a month period. If there are not basic learning links and personal experiences placed here, especially for the younger members; then the future will be bleak for this forum. From observations over the years at FundAlarm and here, there will be "x" number of we folks who will no longer post anything here within the next 5-10 years, including myself. This, of course; is a result of the A.G.E. syndrome. A few of us are gonna be outta here folks.
http://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/discussion/35561/christine-benz-will-coach-you-to-improve-your-financial-life-in-21-daysI have noted the below linked book several times, over the years. Are you the millionaire next door? Have or do you share your knowledge and experiences, being a mentor to the younger ones? The numerical data in the book is out of date, due to inflation; but the methods of attaining financial well being and independence are not.
https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Next-Door-Surprising-Americas/dp/1589795474A few personal and proud periods over a long time frame related to personal finance and investing being a mentor:
1. Two married couples who were never exposed to proper monetary habits.
2. An investment club.
3. The high school crowd. Mostly seniors, all ladies (the guys already know everything, eh?)
How about helping with a survey/study was the question, and I'll pay you $20 for your time and help.
I'm going to "ADD" more later.......appointments call. Respectfully,
Catch
Comments
Good as it gets? Never was. That's true of virtually everything in life from one's spouse to the car they drive. Could it be better? Yup. We can all find things to gripe about. I prefer to focus on the dozen or so extremely bright and knowledgeable (other) people who selflessly contribute in so many ways. I won't embarrass any by naming them ... but don't know how any regular reader can miss recognizing these folks and the unique perspective each brings to the board.
Re your inquiry concerning readership/participation stats, I don't remember the Professor ever detailing much on that. Apparently, the site's software lacks the kind of extensive tracking capabilities necessary to compile such precise visitor statistics. But I do recall two of his observations over the years (and hope I'm not mis-stating them too badly): (1) MFO has been and continues to be successful at its defined mission (largely educational). Readership numbers have continued to grow in recent years. (2) The discussion board drives a lot of visitors to the MFO site. Doesn't answer your questions - but perhaps offers a glimmer of insight.
Catch, I've taken the liberty of listing the discussion topics you have posted during August and September. I must assume that you feel these topics are somehow superior to / of greater value to readers than the typical "run of the mill" posts here?
- As good as it gets at MFO? OR just a bunch of old farts sharing some thoughts/links???
65 views
- 10 numbers reveal the average Americans financial health, how do you compare, updated monthly
- Equifax CEO waves Good Bye; will tour D.C, too
- Still be a watch'in our healthcare holdings for signs of direction, pending "new bill", but we.....
- Equifax self-linked to a "look alike" website it did not create.....
- Sen. Warren, Equifax bill to launch industry probe, 2 exec's. retire; only 90 day fraud alert
382 views16 comments
- Might get some real action on Equifax; knowing congressional folks are loaded into the same boat
- Bank of Japan now holds about 70% of country's ETF market
80 views
- Money is cheap for investing purposes; when are the markets reverting to attempt to kick my....
- New Medicare I.D. numbers coming, replacing SSN based number system
- That Bond Bubble Rumor
- Links and blogs, two sites.....
- Hey, I directed some folks here for fund and related investment discussion. Is this still valid?
- Chinese automaker reportedly bids for Fiat-Chrysler
- Wonderful news. You're outperforming hedge funds.........still
- Auto/Homeowners insurance question.....change to a big box outfit; i.e., Geico, etc.
- Investing effect from amoral, dysfunctional, insulting, obscene, vulgar central government
Link: Discussions initiated by Catch 22 http://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/profile/discussions/16/catch22
Personally, I especially appreciate posts from those less-often heard from, and wish there were more of them. It's surely ironic that the all too frequent complaints and attacks by one particular poster probably do more to turn off visitors than anything else. Live and let live, try and cause minimal harm as you go.
Thanks. Catch can speak for himself.
- I agree with you about the "belittling" individual. I don't know whether more people would participate without him. However, in the real world (including business and investing) we must deal with all types of people. If nothing else we might view the issue as "practice" for coping in the real world.
- I'm not sure participation would be much better without the individual. If there's less participation now than before I'd attribute it more to a stagnant economic/stock market news cycle with little dramatic taking place. Knock a couple thousand points off the Dow in a week's time, or revamp the rules governing IRAs to make them after-tax only and you'd have a flurry of new posters seeking advice here. Goes with the territory. Alternate sources of financial information and ease of accessing them might also play a part. And, the near constant media focus on the current Tweeter in Chief has to be drawing the public's attention away from the more mundane financial questions.
- I'm in the Old F' category at 70. I love the give-and-take of language, and am near constantly reading everything from finance to astronomy during my spare time. As a former educator, I have volumes of quotations covering everything from Shakespeare to Thomas Paine rattling around in my brain. Can't stand TV - except for the financial chatter, which I thrive on, and a short daily dose of national/international news. I make very few changes in my investments. Isn't having a plan rule #1? How can you have a plan if you're buying/selling a fund every few weeks? Back to reading - I get ad-free editions of the WP & Times of London daily, along with weekly editions of Bloomberg Business Week and a science magazine. I try hard to read every edition cover to cover, but usually fall short. When too tired to read, I listen to audio books. Half-way through Steve Jobs (something like 50 hours duration). Visiting the board most days satisfies my need to be mentally engaged in these types of topics. Certainly isn't for everyone.
- Back to said individual - He's had an effect on what I post in the new threads category. I try not to post fund-related topics because he's a bit of a vacuum cleaner sucking everything up. Recently I read a good article on Bill Gross's poor performance after 3 years at Janus in the current issue of Bloomberg. I passed on posting it, not wanting to get into a "spat" with said poster. But there are a lot of topics which have a bearing on investing in an indirect way. I though @Maurice's tongue-in-cheek post about becoming financially sound in 21 days and mine about 20 steps to becoming a millionaire (playing off of Maurice's post) fit that description. Both of those financial goals are immensely challenging endeavors. Those who seek instant success are unlikely to succeed. And the suggestions within those articles certainly were worth thinking about.
BTW - I continue to have great respect for you, Catch, and so many more who share their thoughts in this forum.
I felt giving up the buy, sell, and ponder thread was a way to get more folks involved. In addition, I am going to throttle back on the number post that I make in hope new posters will come forward and make comment or even start new threads for discussion.
I don't by any means want folks to think my goal is to dominate the board. And, thus far, I have not taken comments made by others as a reflection directed towards me. We need all including new investors on out to the most season investors to be active and engaged on the board for it to be a success.
I know some feel there has been one poster that puts up a good number of threads for us to read each day. I don't open all of them but if I see something that might be of interest, to me, I'll open and take a look. Think back when this person was out due to an illness and the threads began to get thin ... I was indeed in hopes he would soon be back. And,, now that he is there are those that complain about the number of items he puts up each day. Remember, you don't have to open them.
I'm stepping back so others can step forward.
Old_Skeet
It's true that in the distant past there were a significant number of complaints about the number of link items Ted puts up each day, but that issue was nicely resolved quite a while ago by the addition of the "Discussions +" category, allowing the bypass of the link forest if so desired. Credit where due, Ted himself has helped cut the clutter significantly by combining many of his previously separate links into his "Breakfast Briefing" and "Closing Bell" summaries.
It's worth noting that three major MFO format changes-
• The Bullpen Category
• The OT Bullpen Category
• The Discussions + Category
were initiated to alleviate complaints by those MFO members who don't particularly appreciate Ted's superabundance of link posts.
The present commentary is generated not by Ted's link posts, but as Mike put it so well: many of us are tired of at least one individual belittling other posts, or trying to monitor what others can post, or trying to classify this board only for a certain knowledge level.
Again, quoting one of the crotchety old posters (that would be me): It's surely ironic that the all too frequent complaints and attacks by Ted probably do more to turn off visitors than anything else. His remarks are divisive and frequently insulting; he promulgates a set of posting rules to be observed by all but himself, and he seemingly believes that he has responsibility for the format and content of MFO.
Over the years management has cautioned him a number of times regarding his conduct, but to little avail. Old dog, no new tricks, I guess.
Carry on!
Yet another example, as if any more were needed, of his misguided belief that he has responsibility for the format and content of MFO. If he would just stick to posting links...
If Lewis or Maurice or catch22 or anyone else gave in to the bullying tactics and decided to withdraw or leave all together, that would be a tragedy, though I would understand their frustration.
@Ted, your links are certainly appreciated by many, though for myself I probably don't read more than 5% of them - unless there is a comment attached. Links are your form of contribution. That's nice. But in all seriousness and not to be mean, those links really don't give you any special privilege or extra weighted opinion on what is acceptable or not. Why would you think otherwise?
Anyway, not sure why I'm getting involved. I usually abstain from the bickering. I guess I would just hate to lose some long time posters.
Once I called you brother of mine....why? Because I read your posts. They have value to me. Does age mean you stop learning? Really? If not for Ted, this board would slow or stop no matter the posts. How to get new blood on this board....that's the big question. The rest of your post I will leave to others. Most on the board will respond to politics. It's a big issue here. The best thread I saw in a long time was Vintage Freak's post soliciting your best three (3) funds. Big response! How to make money is what this board should be about. Buy----Sell-----Ponder: it's what they want. But most on here are Buy and Hold, so it makes things hard.
God bless
the Pudd
@Puddnhead- You're absolutely right on that. I've lost track of the number of funds that I've bought or sold over the years because of discussions here and on Fund Alarm.
To my way of thinking those discussions properly belong in the "Fund Discussions" corral. Anything other than an honest fund-related posting then belongs in the "Off-Topic" arena.
Some of the issues raised by "political" posts occur because either the original post belonged in the Off-Topic category but wasn't put there, or sometimes the give-and-take on a properly posted "Fund" discussion somehow veers into the political area.
That said, it is sometimes very difficult to discuss financial matters without touching on politics: Tax Issues? Fairness and regulation of Wall Street? Banking shenanigans? Fed policies? These topics and more will certainly affect the operation of the financial markets, and therefore eventually impact mutual funds right along with everything else. And it's virtually impossible to discuss those subjects without any consideration of the political values driving them. It seems to me that discussions of this type properly belong in the "Off-Topic" category, where they can be ignored by those not wishing to participate.
Thanks for your many contributions and excellent posts. I always enjoy reading them.
Regards- OJ
Need I add, even a discussion board is now old technology. The youngsters are probably sending Instagram selfies with their favorite ETF prospectuses. All the chatter is on Twitter.
IMO, @Maurice placed an informative link by Ms. Benz; relative to personal finance and how one may learn from the basics or improve upon what they already think they know.
Mentoring, yes? Is this not the thrust of this forum? So many gracious folks here have shared, over the years; their thoughts and/or experiences regarding various sectors of investing or personal finance.
Over the years, comments have been posted stating that "taking investment advice from an internet site is dangerous." I don't recall anyone here stating that if you don't invest like I do, you and your investments are doomed. And yes, taking advice from an internet site or a door to door salesperson may be dangerous if one does not have the ability or desire to do their homework. I read replies to investment questions here that contain mostly valuable information, personal insights/experiences for a given investment and perhaps "suggestions" about alternatives and/or other circumstances to consider. Direct advice and suggestions of consideration are two different animals.
I do my best to attempt to reboot my brain and continue to learn about an area with which I have some knowledge and a passion for.....personal finance and investing. I/we at our house are fortunate enough to have found our paths into these areas many years ago. Well, good for us, eh? What about the young ones?; those who have not had exposure to these areas and find the subject matter as complex and time consuming as learning a foreign language. Yes, I am concerned that the younger ones who cruise through this site because they are trying to learn and understand may become confused and disenchanted enough to not ask a question or perhaps never return.
When I find a comment as in the bold below, I can imagine some of the lurkers here thinking there is not much to learn at this forum and move on. When I plug in my "young, unknowing, first timer" at MFO and read the below comment, my first reaction is that this forum is not for me, among other implications, that the Ms. Benz article is so yesterday; that there are none at this forum who will find value. What? How does one presume the "type/age" of an investor who may find the article a learning tool. Young investors in particular (although this applies to all age brackets), from my experiences; are many times too shy and intimidated by personal finance and investing to ask a question; as they will appear to be "dumb". Hand holding, guidance and encouragement are necessary many times.
MFO Members: "Doubt many here need this advice" You hit the nail on the head. I looked at the series of articles by Christine when they were posted on M*, and decided not to link and subject MFO Members to such elementary advice. Plus, most of this was covered in her 2011 book "Morningstar's 30-Minute Money Solutions: A Step-by-Step Guide to Managing Your Finances", which you can buy through MFO's link to Amazon.
Regards
Ted
(This could have been written in some positive manner, as: This is a re-do of her article from 2011, may contain updated information and should be of value for many; especially the younger individuals without exposure to this area of their lives.
>>> To the portion of the original thread that I didn't finish and not to be misconstrued as self righteous or braggadocios. Mentoring is a part of who I am; and I will provide my thoughts within the range of my knowledge or experience. At the very least, I will be the "devils advocate" as to the "why" questions.
A few personal and proud periods over a long time frame related to personal finance and investing being a mentor:
1. Two married couples who were never exposed to proper monetary habits.
>>> Helped with understanding their cash flow, spending habits, setting a budget and related. They did escape from their bad habits and became successful with managing the money they worked hard to attain.
2. An investment club.
>>> I convinced 20 coworkers to form an investment club that operated for 5 years. This was a satisfying endeavor, as several of the members in particular, gained knowledge of investing and the required confidence of investigating an investment.
3. The high school crowd. Mostly seniors, all ladies (the guys already know everything, eh?)
How about helping with a survey/study was the question, and I'll pay you $20 for your time and help.
>>>This was the most pleasant experience with "mentoring". One can almost "hear" the brain wheels turning with their thoughts.
Here is the scenario ladies: The 3 of you want to share an apartment, all of you have employment with a net income (talked about taxes, SS and Medicare deductions from their gross wage) of $10/hour and need to determine what monies fall into the "need" and "want" categories. You'll need to discuss the "group" costs involved as well as your own personal expenses. All of the basic budget considerations were placed and they made a list of "expenses".
Lastly, I know there are those here who have and continue to mentor family and friends about personal finance and investing. Pat yourself on the back!
I don't mind the numerous daily link postings. Like others have noted, one may choose which to view and one never knows what trinket of knowledge may be discovered, eh? These link postings involve a lot of effort.
A continued thank you to all who ask the questions that cause many of us to "think"; as well as those who post thoughts and/or with links into areas that may have an impact upon our personal finances and investments.
There are some here who have voiced opposition to some off-topic posts that are not directly related to fund investments. Having been a victim of SSN i.d. thief in an attempt to "become me" via the IRS and tax department of the State of Michigan; I find no problem with a post that relates to such intrusions. Equifax and related are valid subject areas, lest the possibility of someone else attempting to ruin what you've worked so hard to attain monetary. As to some off topic areas requesting input and opinion, IMO; these too are valid, as the poster has high regard for those at this forum and is part of the "community" here. Knowing experiences or recommendations; be it, anti-virus software, lease or buy a car or a cell phone or......whatever is alright by me.
I've likely overlooked comments, including some they may have expressed while writing; and will not attempt to reply to all. I did a quick review of this write and hopefully did not travel too far in circles of thought causing confusion. If you find anything that is confusing or clarification, please ask me what the heck I was thinking. And away again today for appointments.
My write about this subject is obviously just my editorial opinion.
Take care of you and yours.
Respectfully,
Catch
@Ol'Skeet - OJ had it right. No criticism of you or your posts was intended. I'm the rare bird here who probably appreciates the medium more than the message. By that I mean I'm most impressed by the logical development of argument and supporting facts rather than by the eventual conclusion reached. And while our investment approaches may differ, I admire the way you carefully lay forth your case for whatever you are doing and the reasons behind it. Lots of detail. You obviously have a plan. Good stuff.
@Puddenhead - I agree with what Old Joe said. Let me elaborate: Investing is about making money. So, it logically follows that making money should be a major focus (and outcome) of a mutual fund discussion board. My question: What's holding you back? The fact that others are discussing Equifax or electric cars in different threads shouldn't prevent you or others from initiating a new thread on a topic of your choice. And nobody should criticize you or others for discussing short-term tactical investments. I recall one thread you started a while back about investing $100,000 for around 6 months. You received a number of great responses. And when one Super Ego here did intervene and attempt to "trash" the discussion, I along with others jumped to defend your thread against unfair attack. http://www.mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/discussion/33673/what-would-you-do/p1
Bottom line: The board represents different things to different participants. Some of that broad mandate stems from the inclusion of a dedicated "Off Topic" section (as OJ pointed out). In the end, the board is pretty much defined by those who participate.
Just a boatload of Vanguard....and more Vanguard.
Cheers.
Just as a suggestion considering @catch22's thoughts about mentoring and the desire to get more people involved in the discussion, maybe we could pick a handful of funds to discuss individually each month. It could be based on funds David has covered or mentioned in his commentary or we could take a couple from the "buy/sell/ponder" discussion that I like a lot. Many people here have a lot to offer and I've learned a great deal from some who are still around and some who aren't as active anymore. If a few discussions about specific funds brought out some of that knowledge and experience I'd guess a lot of readers would learn a lot more than just about those individual funds. Since my understanding of MFO's goals is to focus on funds that aren't covered by others like M*, maybe it would differentiate the discussion board a bit more too.
I'd be willing to make the effort and see how it goes. I'm not sure I'm very good at original commentary but I'll give it a try and would welcome any suggestions, thoughts and/or comments.
As to responses to my post, I maintain that anyone's right to hold and express their opinion to just short of sacred.
As to my response to comments on the items I have posted, I follow a lesson learned from the all-time leading seller of Girl Scout cookies. She sold far and away more cookies than anyone, so much so, that she was invited to give a speech at a national salesperson convention. While she thought everyone should like and buy her cookies, she expressed that, in reality, "S W, S W, S,W." Some will, some won't, so what. If you like my post, thank you. If you think I missed the boat and want to show me an alternative, or a different conclusion to my evidence, I will be happy to discuss that with you. If you just want to rag on me, my response will be " so what" and excuse me while I get up and change the channel.
John
An interesting aside. Under the seat of every person attending the scout's presentation was a box of Girl Scout cookies that one could purchase as they exited the auditorium.
One way to help make MFO more sustainable and relevant to our 30,000 visitors per month! is to write articles for this audience, e.g., fund profiles, launch alerts, Elevator Talk and/or to share their own knowledge of a specific investment idea or topic so that we can learn about them from them, topics that many would find valuable.
Making a contribution through writing has its own personal rewards beyond the subject matter. That has been my own experience from those I've done at MFO, and because of that, I'm going to do more.
Why?
Because this audience has made me want to!
I think that it was Jonathan Ferro @Bloomberg who said, "The less I know about something, the more I go by what I do know." His statement has personal relevance because participants here have made me more knowledgeable, and I believe they can help everyone by occasionally writing something themselves.
We need you.
The very best offerings on MFO concern specific funds or types of funds. I am most interested in knowing what a given fund could do for my portfolio or why I maybe ought to get rid of such a fund. I tried to express my thanks recently to those members who analyzed and and published their opinions on RPGAX, a fund that ended up in my portfolio where it filled a gap. When Ted says I have too many funds, he's right; I don't take directions well.
MFO isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than the Vanguard or M* boards for quality of serious analysis of funds, portfolio construction, and general financial advice. I'm reminded of Churchill's comment about democracy…
As to the content? If a thread gets out of hand, nobody's forcing me to keep reading it. I don't mind the linkfests since there's enough stuff of interest to me each week that makes that curating useful to me. If someone attacks my comments intelligently on their substance I'll respond in kind in a civil discussion -- but if they attack me for my comments (which for me at least here is rare), or use my comments to hijack a conversation, I'll just politely ignore them and not "feed the trolls."
Maybe David or Chip can throw up a 4th forum category called "Links" or "News" or such that will allosw the linkfests, which don't often spur conversations, to not obscure the other forums where there are active discussions taking place? That might help attract fresh voices/newbies to MFO, too. Just a thought.
I participate on MFO for the very simple reason that by doing so I can leverage investment wisdom diversity. Perhaps wisdom is too strong a word, but there are a lot of smart investment folks who populate these exchanges. We all benefit from the diversity in their approaches and in their interpretation of the data.
There are no easy one-and-only-one winning solutions to the market investment problem. There are far too many moving parts. Additionally our target goals and timeframe differences further compromise any single approach.
By reading and participating in MFO discussions we are effectively Crowdsourcing. This allows us to tap into the information and interpretations generated by a host of informed and committed folks. There is power and insights embedded in that cohort. Of course, there is always the danger of the crowd just going along to get along. There's not much danger of that on MFO based on years of experience with this highly opinionated crowd. Good for us!
I have benefitted in the past from numerous exchanges on MFO, and I expect that I will continue to learn and profit from many future exchanges. Thank you all.
Best Wishes
I guess this is an example of how we can learn from each other. Monthly comments by David on new funds is a valuable source of information to which I am turning all the time. Better knowledge does not necessarily bring miracles, but it is certainly much better than flying blind.