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Mo money, Mo money....Fed rates low till end of 2014.....LIP

edited January 2012 in Fund Discussions
Europe will have to travel this route, too. If you're holding CD's for safety, you may just about plan on the return; barring some strange event. This also applies to the ultra short and short term bonds.

Inexpensive money will not be the fix; and I suspect the Fed knows this..........but QE 2.8888 or 3 or whatever is here and alive.

Perhaps this action is an attempt to provide some type of wiggle room for congress to become involved in mortgage modification plans.

Also, not sure about this "rate policy forward look" thing is going to play out. The Fed will start this pronouncments in the near future. But, of to what value???

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/print/2012-01-25/fed-says-benchmark-interest-rate-will-remain-low-until-at-least-late-2014.html

Comments

  • edited January 2012
    Bill Gross' Explains The FOMC Decision: "QE 2.5 Today, QE 3, 4, 5 … Lie Ahead"
    - Additionally, Gross mentions financial repression and doesn't see a rise in rates for three years (at least.)
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/bill-gross-explains-fomc-decision-qe-25-today-qe-3-4-5-…-lie-ahead

    SIX OF 17 FED OFFICIALS SEE NO RATE INCREASE BEFORE 2015
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/fed-slashes-growth-outlook-six-fed-officials-do-not-see-rate-hike-until-2015

  • Tocqueville Gold (TGLDX) popped 5% today. Thanks Uncle Ben!
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @PopTart: Also about 5% from a small position in DWGOX (Dynamic Gold/Prec Metals.) GDXJ (jr Gold Miner ETF) - which I don't have - was up something like 7.6%.
  • Yes, lets follow Japan's blueprint! Keep those rates low and those zombie banks open for business! The U.S. Govt is just as corrupt as any other, and Bernanke is Obama's puppet. I can't wait to see how this all plays out.

    I'm almost looking forward to a complete collapse. We need to start over. And we will, eventually. Maybe gold is the way to go.
  • You evidently fail to remember that Mr. Bernanke was appointed originally by George Bush.

    In my opinion he has been responsible for virtually single-handedly saving our sorry asses, in the face of virtual total abdication of responsibility by congress. And for that, he gets opinions like yours. Feh.

    It is quite evident that you have no appreciation whatsoever of the checkered, unreliable, and downright idiosyncratic results of dependency on a gold standard. Read your history, I suggest.
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @Old_Joe: Oh yay, another political/monetary policy debate. Those always go well.
  • Howdy folks,

    Yeppers, it was a good day in the neighborhood today. TYVM.

    Gross is spot on. QE 3, 4, 5, 6 . . . nth. This means that they will indeed halve the value of the dollar thru monetizing the Unfunded Liabilities over the next ten years. Or at least that's the plan. The only way they can possibly pay this tab. Monetization and benefit reductions and tax increases. Oh, BTW, do you know the definiation of job security? Press Operator at the BEP.

    This means that gold will run for at least another two years (rono's been calling for a 15 year bull and from 2001 that's about 2015-16. That said, the Great Austerity will probably last until 2023 or so - another ten years of kicking the can - so I really don't see gold ever falling back that far.

    Oh, and this is only if they're successful. If they're not, we get some sort of finanical meltdown and hopefully not bloody revolution.

    Where to now, St. Peter?

    Have some gold - real gold. Not tons, just some. 5% or so of your wealth. Cripes, you can stash a roll of gold eagles (quarter size and about 2" tall) in oatmeal can. Buy a 1000 oz ingot of silver, paint it black and use it as a door stop. The former worth about $35K and the latter $30K.

    Guard against inflation. Guard against the Great Austerity. Screw the offical numbers as we all know better and we are the ones that must deal reality.

    Borrow money if at all possible. Yeah, with zero interest rates, the supply of credit is greatly restricted. It's a classic Liquidity Trap but best explained with Econ 101 Supply/Demand charts for artificially set prices ====>>>> no supply. Nixon gas price controls - no supply. A couple of years back and the paper price of bullion was so much lower than the street price, supply disappeared or premiums went off the chart. Same/same today, but with credit. Rates are artificially low and bankers aren't willing to make loans at the official rate. Yeppers, 30 year fixed mortgages are around 3. 7%. Sure they are. And inflation is zero. Folks, no banker is going to make a loan for 30 at 3.7% - unless you have a huge downpayment and a credit score over 800 and your last name is Buffet or Gates. Sorry, they don't have any cash. Now if you want to pay 5-6%, well maybe they can find some money.

    Nevertheless, in this environment with real estate cheap and money cheap and facing inflation - the answer is easy. Borrow every dime you can at the best fixed terms and buy real estate. I'd be very careful leveraging huge amounts on the roof over my head, but otherwise swing for the fence. The most precious area is probably cropland. Hell, it didn't even blink with the housing meltdown. However, anything with water, or better yet, on the water (inland). As for second homes . . . stay ahead of the boomer hoard if you can (they're just starting to retire and are in that housing phase) and scoop up some goodie in FL or AZ. In Florida nice single family condos are going for 40-50% of their peak. Yeah, they were overpriced, but this is still Florida.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidity_trap

    What other ways to preserve and hopefully grow your wealth?

    peace,

    rono
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @rono: Completely in agreement. As I've said before, real assets are going to be the place to be - from miners (which have started to take off), to infrastructure (while it's run up a bit too much recently, I continue to like Brookfield Infrastructure) to any number of other plays under that umbrella.
  • Howdy again,

    And BTW, one other thing that is also helping to keep inflation from exploding is because the current velocity of money is around zero. No lending, no movement and no circulation. That's the bitch - they're printing money like crazy but can't legally drop it from helicopters but have to funnel it thru the major banks and those folks are sitting on it playing with their puds. It's like when our gov't gives foreign aid to some poor country with starving citizens. They have to give it to the folks in power and so often, they folks send it to a swiss bank and the people still starve.

    and so it goes,

    peace,

    rono
  • Reply to @Old_Joe:
    I don't care who appointed him, I just know that he will make Greenspan look like a wizard when its all over. And that's a feat.

    Obama has kept a lot of the same fools (Larry Summers ring a bell?) that Clinton had on board. I'm surprised Robert Rubin isn't around. These guys dropped the ball before. Nothing changes.

    Bernanke isn't really calling these shots, IMHO. Politics at play, pulling the strings. Its Obama's election year, need I remind you. I don't worship any of these clowns.

    Gold may not be the answer. But really no asset class looks all that attractive right now, unless you believe equities can stay artificially inflated (with Ben's continued help). Not a gamble I'm willing to take.
  • If you haven't read them already, check out the models of gold prices under low real short-term interest rate conditions by Eddy Elfenbein and Willem Weytjens:

    http://www.crossingwallstreet.com/archives/2011/12/refining-the-gold-model.html

  • Look what happened to Europe when the economic reality did not match their monetary policy. If the economy is not ready to lift interest rates making the monetary policy tighter is stupid.
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @JoeNoEskimo: I can almost hear you now at your coffee klatch at McDonald's with all your friends who think like you because you throw out ad hominem political attacks with ease. My advice to you is this if you are serious about investing surround yourself with people who dont think like you. The easiest group of investors whose movements are easiest to predict are investors like you because you think all the government largesse flows to undeserving lazy people --in reality it goes to social security, medicare, and defense. Yet the market keeps going up despite many many investors like you who have sat on the sidelines because of the so called inefficiencies of government. The time to be concerned about the market is when everybody is thinking about how great the market is--right now half of US investors think the markets have become less free when in reality they have become more free because the implicit subsidy for bankers is not there anymore and yet the market continues to go up.

  • I know, Scott, I know. I really try not to initiate this kind of stuff but if somebody doesn't shoot back they just go on forever.
  • And I thank you, sir. BTW, very nice to hear from you again. Meant to mention that the other day.

    Regards-
  • And as you well know from "The Power of Gold" history is replete with examples of economic reality not matching monetary policy, and stupid decisions being made. And most often it wasn't the "1%" who took it in the shorts, even way back then. Nothing new here.
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @PopTart: Nice going Pop Tart. That 5% gain today's worth more than what a 10 year Treasury will generate in "income" over next 2 years. (-:
  • edited January 2012
    Europe should concern us as investors - being the financial swampland that's spilling over into the world economy. But I'm getting tired of pols pointing to Europe as the "example" of what the U.S. surely gonna become if we don't enact some draconian austerity measures. Com'on! Lota differences between Europe and the U.S. We got a single currency under a strict Federalist system. European Union's got the single currency - but no unified political system. In hindsight their mess was bound to happen as the members all went their own ways economically and politically while pegged to one common currency. Also, don't discount differences in population, society, geography, natural resources, institutions and historical experiences which make the continents much different. Don't mean to dismiss our own problems. Hope our semi dysfunctional govt can eventually solve these American problems. Just tired of certain pols crying "Europe" whenever it fits their political / ideological agenda. End of rant!
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @Old_Joe: Eh, it just winds up with the same variations on the same arguments and snippy statements. Politics seem like the new religion in this country - people get more offended it seems like if you insult their political party (I've been to family events where very, very nice people turn very tense in 0-60 when politics becomes the topic - and when politics starts on this board, the responses start becoming tense); it's just incredibly divisive in a time where we need people to come together and I have about zero confidence that that will happen.

    Politics in general in this country have become more and more divisive. Not to say that politics hasn't always been the subject of heated debate, but the level of anger at "those leftys" or those "right-wingers" or whatever that one sees across the internet in various comments sections is downright concerning (I think.) It's not like that here, certainly, but the tension does start up almost predictably whenever someone makes a political comment or a comment that can be thought of as somehow insulting to one political party or the other.

    There are many excellent debates on this board about various aspects of life and investing, but this particular debate continually results in the same things. Not saying it can't be debated, of course, but politics and monetary policy are two things where there are two sides to this board that I see no progress in either side changing its thinking.

    As for a generalized statement on today:

    From Forbes: "The Chairman was put on the spot with several questions regarding the effectiveness of his policies. Asked about the destruction of savings given ultra-low interest rates, Bernanke admitted he understood savers were getting a real bad deal. Essentially, Bernanke said the anemic recovery necessitated low interest rates to strengthen. Low rates are used to stimulate investment, according to Bernanke, and that “has a cost on savers.”

    In other words, Bernanke told people to stop saving and start investing. When the economy is really bad, he explained, returns are going to be low and savers will get meager returns. Keeping your money in supposedly safe Treasury bills and CDs won’t help reactivate the economy, according to the Chairman’s view of the economy, and neither will keeping dollars under a mattress."

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/01/25/bernanke-tells-people-stop-saving-and-start-spending/

    I don't agree that this is a good solution and I do think it will have negative effects (which I've gone into on many occasions and I'm not going to get into it here), but it is what it is. The desired end result is inflation - that's not some sort of insult to Bernanke, it is what he has stated. Rono also goes into this below.

    If this is a negative real interest rate environment (and it is and it may be for a long time), the question becomes how do you approach that? Everyone's answers are going to be different, and I think coming up with specific ideas (what to look for and what to avoid) would be a good and useful discussion to have here.

    Personally, I continue to believe the real asset theme - and it certainly doesn't have to be only precious metals - I think agriculture/ag related will do well over the next decade and that food will become increasingly politicized over the next 5-10 years. As I've said before though, a lot can fit under the "real/hard asset" umbrella. I think REITs in the US are overbought in many instances, but many foreign (EM/developed) real estate stocks did not do well last year and would be of more interest (I think). Infrastructure assets, too - especially strategic/critical infrastructure. I think it's a little overbought at this point, but I continue to like Brookfield Infrastructure (BIP) - additionally, one of the few US REITs I do like is sister Brookfield Office Properties (BPO), but that also feels a little overbought), but there are other infrastructure plays, as well.

  • edited January 2012
    Nicely stated Scott. Share your concerns about the extreme partisanship and also how it sometimes washes over into other areas - including here. But (getting back to some of the previous discussions) I never felt either party had a monopoly on corruption. Too many instances of pols on BOTH sides gettin caught with suitcases full of $$ and their fingers in the cookie jar - or worse.

    And, will stop well short of equating misguided or ill conceived government actions with corruption. Disagree intensely for example with many recent SC rulings like the one on unlimited campaign contributions. View it and the Justices who voted for it as misguided and detrimental to our system - but not "corrupt" - in the normal sense, anyway.

    Maybe need an additional discussion area called "politics" to keep those excursions separate. Than again, let's assume David's not completely nuts - and we've probably already given him enough gray hairs. (-;
  • edited January 2012
    Hi Scott- My reaction is actually not so much a "political" disagreement as it is a distaste for simplistic verbal bombardment unsupported by any documented examples of "wrongdoing" on the part of the alleged offenders, and, typically, completely devoid of any well-structured suggestions for reasonable alternatives.

    Additionally, such commentary predictably makes some half-assed reference to a subject which is inherently complex and multifaceted, again typically failing to recognize any historical experience on the matter.

    The post which I found to be irritating certainly meets those "standards".

    I respectfully disagree with Hank on this occasion. My response was not "partisan", but merely an attempt to demonstrate and refute some of the inconsistent and, frankly, rather vapid remarks of Mr. NoEskimo.

    Scott, you should know me well enough by now to realize that I welcome intelligent (if sometimes heated) discussions, and almost always recognize that there is usually more than a little truth on both sides of most issues. This is why I tend to engage with folks who have different perspectives- it's a lot more interesting to hear opinions which may not be in agreement with mine.

    However, I have little tolerance for aggressive and boorish ignorance.

    Regards- OJ
  • Reply to @Hogan:

    Funny, I pictured you and your cronies getting drunk at the local VFW, touting the US as the eternal superpower of the world.

    AAII investor sentiment survey was 48% bullish vs. 19% bearish as of 1/25/12 report. A slow melt-up will do that. So investors are not exactly "running scared" at the moment (bearish indicator)- though fund flows at the retail level were extremely negative for 2011 (bullish indicator). Lack of volume is a red flag right now for me at the moment (bearish), and I don't mind sitting on the sidelines with all these mixed signals. In the end, I feel it's an artificially inflated market, and a continued melt-up is entirely possible..for a while.

    And I'm entitled to that opinion EVEN if it differs from yours.
  • Reply to @Old_Joe:
    Get off your high horse, these message boards aren't all about you, and what YOU disagree with.

    Others can post their opinions, or vent. You can ignore what you don't like.

    Deal with it.
  • Reply to @JoeNoEskimo: And you know what? I completely agree with that analysis (excepting maybe the VFW part).

    And I don't think that too many folks would disagree with you either. Sneaking very timidly into the previous disagreement, it comes down to dealing with an artificially inflated market vs a totally uncontrolled deflated market (aka "The Great Depression").

    "Mr. In-Between" don't exist in this arena. Not saying the choices are great here, but so far we're doing a bit better than they did in '28. And if Mr. Bernanke knows anything, he does know a whole lot about 1928.

    And of course you're entitled to ANY opinion EVEN if it differs from mine... just as long as there is some reasoning there and not just an accusatory diatribe.
  • Re: the posts recommending buying real estate, what is a good way of investing in real estate without directly purchasing individual properties? There was an article posted some time ago about how REITs do not correlate well with their underlying assets (probably because most of them focus on office rent and not on residential property appreciation). Are there any funds that track a House Price Index or anything similar? Are homebuilders or other sector stocks a good proxy for real estate? Thanks in advance.
  • edited January 2012
    Reply to @JoeNoEskimo: I believe that I did in fact "Deal with it".

    Others can post their opinions, or vent. You can ignore what you don't like. See, it works both ways, something some folks have a problem with.
  • Reply to @claimui:

    I would post this as a new question; as it is buried too deep into this thread; which is generally not related to your question.

    Regards,
    Catch
  • Reply to @claimui: Unfortunately, there is no way to invest very specifically in real estate sort of in the way that one can invest directly in commodities instead of commodity companies (not an exact comparison, but you get the idea.)

    There are some more opportunistic "property funds" in London (an example: http://www.eepfl.com/), but they are as volatile as REITs and are mainly Europe-centric. I'd be interested in more strategic/opportunistic real estate investments in the US, but there doesn't seem to be anything on the horizon. I don't think I'd invest in the homebuilders broadly; one may be able to make a thesis on why some specific segment might do okay, but I think anything involving homebuilders is really an "over the horizon and then some" investment.
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