Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
What I would like to know is why I always hear the drums beating that that Social Security is "running out of money", but I have never heard a beat that Medicaid is.
Reply to @Junkster: so according to this article 108 million people receive welfare, nobody is counted twice in these programs and all the other people on social security, vets benefits, or Medicare which number in the millions leaves us with about with 100 million workers versus 200 million people receiving more from the government than what they paid in and we haven't even started with farmers or corporations yet.
Direct Payments to Individuals are Certainly Not the Only Government Benefits Enjoyed Across the USA ! From Huffington Post "Voters across the spectrum enjoy public benefits and historically low income tax rates, plus a web of credits, deductions and exemptions.
Those dynamics add up to long odds that Congress and President Barack Obama can fundamentally restructure the budget anytime soon, as both sides insist they want to do in the face of a nearly $17 trillion debt that exceeds the U.S. economy's annual output." After Government Shutdown, Few Discussing Budget Solutionshttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/27/government-shutdown-budget_n_4167615.html
Beware sensationalized reports from either side in the ongoing Washington budget battle which this is in no small measure related to. The article is a reprint from the ultra-conservative Investors Business Daily. It leans on a report from the very conservative news outlet, Cybercast News Service (previously called "Conservative News Service") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybercast_News_Service
Their self-described "data hound" is said to have dug through a recent Census Bureau report to uncover these findings. This link will take you to a list of U.S. Census Bureau Reports (all 245,000 of them). http://search.census.gov/search?utf8=✓&affiliate=census&query=all+reports&commit.x=4&commit.y=16 I'd suggest doing some independent reading and research of Census Bureau reports before accepting conclusions in total. In particular, attempt to identify the scope and perimeters of programs considered "public assistance".
As someone else mentioned, the folks I see on public assistance don't appear to live very well. I'm left with more questions than answers here: (1) Would the authors cut public assistance to disabled veterans? (2) To hungry children receiving free school lunches? (3) for temporary public housing for the victims of Katrina and Sandy? (4) for public health and immunization programs - which protect all of us? (5) And how would the influential U.S. agri-lobby react to a curtailment of the food stamp program which in part helps support high agg prices?
I admit that I didn't read all the links, but I did read the initial "editorial." I'm pretty sure that I will be paying taxes on my SS, whenever I decide to finally collect it, and I haven't favored any tax cut since the first one by Ronnie R, and I wasn't too sure about it. I didn't and don't mind paying to live in the US. We Rupublicans buy votes with tax cuts and the Democrats buy them with entitlement programs, both increasing the debt. If the gov't had ever had a surplus, I would have happily accepted a tax cut or, more appropriately, a temporary tax rebate program returning a percentage of collections. (Then the recent wars could have been "on the books" by cancelling the rebates- and complaints about their costs appropriately vociferous.) The one point I gleaned from the initial link was that the minimum wage must be too low, if welfare pays more. Very few people I have seen "living on welfare" are living very well. Some, by living in extended families, live better than 90% of the developing world, but worse than middle class or working class with union jobs in the developed world. In this economy, "disability" is used to get benefits for the uneducated or those living in areas where few jobs are available. The best solution would be for our elected representatives to act like adults, but that requires the voters to act like adults first, and I don't think too many of them stayed awake in Civics class, which was in the seventh grade when I grew up, and seemed far removed from real life. It should be taught in the senior high school year, along with personal finance, and a passing grade should be required for graduation.
[The] 108.6 million figure for the number of "people on welfare" comes from a Census Bureau's account (Table 2) of participation in means-tested programs, which include "anyone residing in a household in which one or more people received benefits" in the fourth quarter of 2011, thus including individuals who did not themselves receive government benefits. On the other hand, the "people with a full time job" figure Fox used included only individuals who worked, not individuals residing in a household where at least one person works.
Furthermore, many people who receive federal benefits also work. The means-tested programs in the Census Bureau report included Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, or TANF, which includes strict work requirements. In 2011, 6.4 million households with earnings also participated in food stamps, or the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. And public or subsidized rental housing provides rental assistance to low-income families -- families who have an income which is 50 to 80 percent below the median income for the area.
Whatever the number is, it is way too high for the "booming economy" we are told we are in. Should we be proud of the fact that so many people are dependent on government benefits versus working and supporting themselves and their families?
Err...who said we were in a booming economy. This is supposed to be the worse recovery ever. Even recovery after Great Depression was supposed to be better than this.
I can tell you my personal economy is not booming. My salary is not moving, my utility bills are higher AND my ARCNX is lower. Go figure!!!
Regardless of the actual figure, it's way too high relative to the overall population or the number of employed. Cripes, we're still in a depression and there is a lot of pain on Main St. Unemployment is closer to 23% and inflation 5% (and if the velocity of money was greater than zero we'd have more inflation). So for the purists, flash back to the 30's and run the numbers from that time. Count all the make work programs and the dole and it'd be curious to see the percentages.
I've pretty much been a liberal democrat all of my adult life but find fault with so much of their approach. If I give a man a fish, tomorrow he wants another fish. If I teach him how to fish, tomorrow I can ignore him. The system is Not designed to incourage people to get off welfare but to remain on. Remember the $1T stimulus package during O's first term? Most went to feel good pelosiesque give away programs - where it . . . went away. If 100% of the money had gone instead to infrastructure projects administered by the states, folks would be working today instead of on the dole and we'd have made an investment in the future.
That said, all the QE is going to Wall Street and the investment class and resentment is starting to build in the hinterland. Geez, when you watch CNBC they're all partying but they're looking very guilty and constantly over their shoulders.
Washington? Are you serious!?! Congress is completely disfunctional and our Pres? [do you know why they "can't release how many of actually signed up before mid-November? because nationwide NO ONE has been able to sign up completely. NO ONE]. What a joke. And the only folks trying to act like adults are the FED and about the most they can do is QE 'til your nose bleeds and hope they don't implode the dollar.
What's wrong? What's NOT wrong? I know I sound extreme to some. We are quite literally living in Orwell's 1984. People just don't want to admit it. The American sheeple are easily controlled and manipulated by the politicians. False dichotomies are all they recognize. Because that's all they're fed. Government statistics are a joke. We are lied to at every turn. There needs to be a revolution, if anything is to change. But Americans are too self-absorbed these days. There will be no revolution until everyone is reduced to begging for bread. The perfect anecdotal example is the gym where I go, not often enough. There's very cool music piped through the ceiling. But 99% of the people wall themselves off from everything and anyone else, with their own private, individualized IPods, listening to their own personal Reality with a selected mix of favorite songs, via earbuds. Perfect consumers, we are. Have it your way. Don't pay any attention to the fact that having it your way costs a great deal more than the way things used to be, when choices and options were simpler, and people didn't ignore each other. Things got fixed that needed to be fixed. You didn't have to answer the same 12 identity questions 14 times before you were permitted to actually speak to a human who is supposed to help you, but they know nothing about anything.
Reply to @MaxBialystock: Not to dismiss your overall point - but as for the gym, consider going to a swimming pool at least some days. Good exercise & I find not the same number of electronic gadgets there. fwiw
Some may believe there is a lot wrong with this country, albeit I sure wouldn't want to live anywhere else (ok, maybe Australia) But this being an investment forum there sure isn't anything wrong with this country's stock market with just about every equity index imaginable (as well as my beloved junk bonds) hitting one all time high after another. I would think the accounts of most everyone on this board are at all time highs and at least financially all is well.
On a somewhat related note, maybe where one resides in this country impacts their views pro or con. By chance many years ago I ended up in Mayberry. A prosperous farming community that seems about 30 years behind the times. And 30 years ago were pretty darn good times. There's little to no crime, your neighbors are your best friends and will do anything for you, families old and young do everything together, when you venture out in public you are always greeted with a smile and friendly hello, everyone is genuine and authenic, and the cost of living is unbelievably low, So here in Mayberry USA life is good, very, very good.
I am with Junkster. A lot of stuff may be wrong. It is easy to lash out to government but ironically there are more things going right here than elsewhere.
Many think the other side of the fence is greener but there are many more things wrong there too and we just thing it is better because we are not familiar with the other side day to day.
Don't give in to Politically driven fear by fear mongers.
Not to beat a dead horse, but here's the actual census report. Everything under the "One or more..." line is a means-tested subcategory:
People by Receipt of Benefits from Selected Programs: Monthly Averages, Fourth Quarter (October, November, December) 2011 (Numbers in thousands. The figures for means-tested programs include anyone residing in a household in which one or more people received benefits from the program.)
Recipiency status and program Number Standard error Percent Standard error
All people 306,804 -- 100.0 --
Received benefits from one or more programs 151,014 881 49.2 0.3 Social Security 49,901 290 16.3 0.1 Railroad Retirement 364 46 0.1 -- Veterans' compensation 3,178 132 1.0 -- Unemployment compensation 5,098 140 1.7 -- Workers' compensation 680 51 0.2 -- Veterans' educational assistance 34 14 -- -- Medicare 46,440 203 15.1 0.1 One or more means-tested programs (1) (2) 108,592 880 35.4 0.3 Public or subsidized rental housing 13,433 416 4.4 0.1 Federal Supplemental Security Income (SSI) 20,223 494 6.6 0.2 Food stamps (3) 49,073 784 16.0 0.3 Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) 5,854 323 1.9 0.1 Other cash assistance 4,957 260 1.6 0.1 Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) 23,228 581 7.6 0.2 Medicaid 82,457 908 26.9 0.3
-- Represents or rounds to zero. (1) Includes free or reduced-price lunch or breakfast, energy assistance, state-administered supplemental security income, and veterans' pensions not shown separately.
(2) Includes anyone residing in a household in which one or more people received benefits from a means-tested program.
(3) Now known as the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program or SNAP.
So 151mm Americans live in a household where one or more members receives Federal aid. 108mm live in households where some of that aid is means-tested. Households are not double counted here, so if you receive Medicare, Food Stamps and SSI you and your entire household are only counted once in the grand total. That doesn't mean 108mm Americans receive federal welfare, though. I'm not sure Pell Grant's, for instance, are included, but if they were, if a child in a family of five got one then everyone in that house then would count against that figure.
The two big costs are Food Stamps at 49mm and Medicaid at ~ 82.5mm. The Medicaid number would seem to me to appear artificially inflated because of the amount of people, particularly people with severe disabilities, cared for in a home setting. I'd also hazard a guess that the ACA would significantly lower the number of people on Medicaid, with its push to expand Medicare and to eliminate "double dippers," those whose health costs are accidentally paid by both Medicaid and Medicare.
It's important to note that many people who work are eligible for means-tested federal benefits. In my opinion, the problem isn't that the government gives away means-tested aid. As someone alluded above, it's that the economy isn't producing the sorts of jobs where people can support themselves and their families without outside help.
Quoting you, MrDarcey: "It's important to note that many people who work are eligible for means-tested federal benefits. In my opinion, the problem isn't that the government gives away means-tested aid. As someone alluded above, it's that the economy isn't producing the sorts of jobs where people can support themselves and their families without outside help."
Comments
Mona
"Voters across the spectrum enjoy public benefits and historically low income tax rates, plus a web of credits, deductions and exemptions.
Those dynamics add up to long odds that Congress and President Barack Obama can fundamentally restructure the budget anytime soon, as both sides insist they want to do in the face of a nearly $17 trillion debt that exceeds the U.S. economy's annual output."
After Government Shutdown, Few Discussing Budget Solutions http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/27/government-shutdown-budget_n_4167615.html
Cybercast apparently relied on a report from the conservative libertarian think tank CATO Institute, an organization to which the politically active Texas billionaire Koch brothers contribute heavily and over which they exert substantial control. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-03-03/politics/35447889_1_koch-brothers-cato-institute-ed-crane
Their self-described "data hound" is said to have dug through a recent Census Bureau report to uncover these findings. This link will take you to a list of U.S. Census Bureau Reports (all 245,000 of them). http://search.census.gov/search?utf8=✓&affiliate=census&query=all+reports&commit.x=4&commit.y=16
I'd suggest doing some independent reading and research of Census Bureau reports before accepting conclusions in total. In particular, attempt to identify the scope and perimeters of programs considered "public assistance".
As someone else mentioned, the folks I see on public assistance don't appear to live very well. I'm left with more questions than answers here: (1) Would the authors cut public assistance to disabled veterans? (2) To hungry children receiving free school lunches? (3) for temporary public housing for the victims of Katrina and Sandy? (4) for public health and immunization programs - which protect all of us? (5) And how would the influential U.S. agri-lobby react to a curtailment of the food stamp program which in part helps support high agg prices?
I'm pretty sure that I will be paying taxes on my SS, whenever I decide to finally collect it, and I haven't favored any tax cut since the first one by Ronnie R, and I wasn't too sure about it. I didn't and don't mind paying to live in the US.
We Rupublicans buy votes with tax cuts and the Democrats buy them with entitlement programs, both increasing the debt.
If the gov't had ever had a surplus, I would have happily accepted a tax cut or, more appropriately, a temporary tax rebate program returning a percentage of collections. (Then the recent wars could have been "on the books" by cancelling the rebates- and complaints about their costs appropriately vociferous.)
The one point I gleaned from the initial link was that the minimum wage must be too low, if welfare pays more. Very few people I have seen "living on welfare" are living very well. Some, by living in extended families, live better than 90% of the developing world, but worse than middle class or working class with union jobs in the developed world.
In this economy, "disability" is used to get benefits for the uneducated or those living in areas where few jobs are available.
The best solution would be for our elected representatives to act like adults, but that requires the voters to act like adults first, and I don't think too many of them stayed awake in Civics class, which was in the seventh grade when I grew up, and seemed far removed from real life. It should be taught in the senior high school year, along with personal finance, and a passing grade should be required for graduation.
mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/28/dishonest-fox-chart-overstates-comparison-of-we/196618
I can tell you my personal economy is not booming. My salary is not moving, my utility bills are higher AND my ARCNX is lower. Go figure!!!
Regardless of the actual figure, it's way too high relative to the overall population or the number of employed. Cripes, we're still in a depression and there is a lot of pain on Main St. Unemployment is closer to 23% and inflation 5% (and if the velocity of money was greater than zero we'd have more inflation). So for the purists, flash back to the 30's and run the numbers from that time. Count all the make work programs and the dole and it'd be curious to see the percentages.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts
I've pretty much been a liberal democrat all of my adult life but find fault with so much of their approach. If I give a man a fish, tomorrow he wants another fish. If I teach him how to fish, tomorrow I can ignore him. The system is Not designed to incourage people to get off welfare but to remain on. Remember the $1T stimulus package during O's first term? Most went to feel good pelosiesque give away programs - where it . . . went away. If 100% of the money had gone instead to infrastructure projects administered by the states, folks would be working today instead of on the dole and we'd have made an investment in the future.
That said, all the QE is going to Wall Street and the investment class and resentment is starting to build in the hinterland. Geez, when you watch CNBC they're all partying but they're looking very guilty and constantly over their shoulders.
Washington? Are you serious!?! Congress is completely disfunctional and our Pres? [do you know why they "can't release how many of actually signed up before mid-November? because nationwide NO ONE has been able to sign up completely. NO ONE]. What a joke. And the only folks trying to act like adults are the FED and about the most they can do is QE 'til your nose bleeds and hope they don't implode the dollar.
and so it goes,
peace,
rono
Stay well- OJ
........I guess I feel better now.
On a somewhat related note, maybe where one resides in this country impacts their views pro or con. By chance many years ago I ended up in Mayberry. A prosperous farming community that seems about 30 years behind the times. And 30 years ago were pretty darn good times. There's little to no crime, your neighbors are your best friends and will do anything for you, families old and young do everything together, when you venture out in public you are always greeted with a smile and friendly hello, everyone is genuine and authenic, and the cost of living is unbelievably low, So here in Mayberry USA life is good, very, very good.
Many think the other side of the fence is greener but there are many more things wrong there too and we just thing it is better because we are not familiar with the other side day to day.
Don't give in to Politically driven fear by fear mongers.
The two big costs are Food Stamps at 49mm and Medicaid at ~ 82.5mm. The Medicaid number would seem to me to appear artificially inflated because of the amount of people, particularly people with severe disabilities, cared for in a home setting. I'd also hazard a guess that the ACA would significantly lower the number of people on Medicaid, with its push to expand Medicare and to eliminate "double dippers," those whose health costs are accidentally paid by both Medicaid and Medicare.
It's important to note that many people who work are eligible for means-tested federal benefits. In my opinion, the problem isn't that the government gives away means-tested aid. As someone alluded above, it's that the economy isn't producing the sorts of jobs where people can support themselves and their families without outside help.
The whole report and similar can be found here:
census.gov/sipp/tables/quarterly-est/household-char/hsehld-char-11.html
Spot-on. Give people a LIVEABLE wage.
Mona