Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
Stunning. I admire Kelly. But when you reach this point in the game, the ship may have already been lost. I wouldn’t use “love” to characterize my feelings. What happened to PSATS PSATWE?
Talk about mixed feelings. I would not have done what Kelly & team did. It is fractious and serves no good purpose other than elevate the temperature. U.S. soldier know the law. But, I respect Kelly and his colleagues greatly. Possibly they have it right here. Would someone please turn down the thermostat before we all self destruct?
I occasionally worked with younger troops in training. Their lives are often complicated and confusing. Many are starting families and learning to keep their marriages together while having to divide their loyalties in ways people with civilian jobs may not understand or appreciate. Letting them know they have access to legal advice if they have a question is good. It used to be that most military leadership could be counted on to have their backs and the young troops trusted them to provide that cover. I think that until it is known for sure that the military and civilian courts can be counted on, we, the American people, need to provide that cover. After all, "we the people" created this situation that our troops and their leaders now face. And, without making judgements, I would like to say there is nothing wrong with that commercial or the participants use of their free speech. Do we want people to be so afraid for themselves that they won't speak up?
The military has already been engaged in extra-constitutional activities, carrying out extra-constitutional (unconstitutional) instructions from a President who shreds and tramples on the Constitution every single day. Every single hour. Even in his sleep. The politician-veterans did well to be explicit, raising the issue. The worst thing any of us could do is to self-censor, to stay quiet or to hide and cower in the face of a pretend President who is full of himself and all the power he can manage to usurp from a spineless Congress; to say nothing of the fact that he's packed the courts, too.
The Dept. of "War" memo posted re: Sen. Kelly is the biggest pile of termite feces in the universe. Kelly and the others can stand tall. They are not for sale, unlike all of the sycophants in the Crime and Grift Syndicate which is the Trump regime.
Talk about mixed feelings. I would not have done what Kelly & team did. It is fractious and serves no good purpose other than elevate the temperature. U.S. soldier know the law. But, I respect Kelly and his colleagues greatly. Possibly they have it right here. Would someone please turn down the thermostat before we all self destruct?
I respectfully disagree. The video created by Kelly and several other lawmakers reminds service members that "You can refuse illegal orders." Trump claimed these lawmakers were guilty of seditious behavior which is obviously false. Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice states that service members must obey lawful orders and disobey unlawful orders. Officers usually have legal counsel to determine if military actions are lawful. Troops often do not have immediate access to legal counsel in these situations and are therefore placed in a very precarious position.
"Secretary Hegseth’s tweet is the first I heard of this. I also saw the President’s posts saying I should be arrested, hanged, and put to death."
"If this is meant to intimidate me and other members of Congress from doing our jobs and holding this administration accountable, it won’t work. I’ve given too much to this country to be silenced by bullies who care more about their own power than protecting the Constitution."
I must also respectfully disagree with @hank. To an incoming recruit the UCMJ hovers over one's head like a sledge hammer because it looks like the laws are stacked against them despite what the good book says. Many of the youngsters have trouble with right from wrong much less legal v. illegal. What's galling to me is that 94-95 other veterans in the house and senate haven't backed them up.
What Mr. Kelly and the others have done is in the best spirit of John McCain in my book.
this was not an appeal to rightwingers in the military. but amazing not a single gop pol joined in.
it was for others in service that may not realize illegal orders may have already been issued and challenge\resolution will take a long time. and until then, expect this behavior to escalate from trump on down.
what dems missed is a chance to provide service members anonymous paths to get advice, because nothing would be more on brand than brutal retaliation.
I'm glad. The admin got rid of a lot of JAG folks or reassigned them. There may not be enough of them around to give updated legal advice to some in the military who have questions. The same as the 1st time around with this Asjh0(Le. There were several military in the admin that tried to limit his craziness or be the grown up in the room.
I absolutely agree with Anna, Crash, Observant1, Mark, a2z, and gman57.
As Observant1 said- "Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice states that service members must obey lawful orders and disobey unlawful orders.
Officers usually have legal counsel to determine if military actions are lawful. Troops often do not have immediate access to legal counsel in these situations and are therefore placed in a very precarious position."
Having been enlisted, I can attest to the accuracy of that observation.
speaking of on brand, prez shinsplints says he will now attempt to prosecute astronaut and elite veteran mark kelly...a human being that trump can not approach at any level no matter how many times he can convince idiots to vote gop.
this will be the xxxxxx -th reminder that saying 'take down the temp' has no meaning to a party to which any escalation is now its core trait.
Sure, we would all think it goes without saying, and who does not want to turn down the temp ... EXCEPT our country have now killed well over 80 individuals completely extrajudicially. No process of any sort. All because of our illegal notions of guilt.
Repulsive morally and all other ways, irrespective of what they may have done. Really quite something for this country, or any country.
So yeah, this is always a good time to speak up and remind drone operators of their oath. And then publicize it. Let those in charge and giving these lawless orders try and defend it.
Couldn't pass this up. While I disagree with Hank, I can understand his position. Hell, I had to block a Recon buddy on FB for a similar argument. He was opining that this sort of message from Kelly, et al. could under mind the chain of command and even encourage mutiny. Seems this would have been the sort of talk German officers would have made to the troops as they were marching the Jews to the concentration camps.
No. Trump is already using our military against civilians. It's too late to be coy. The men and women in uniform need to be told NOW that, 'I was just following orders' has never worked as a defense and there are a lot of executed soldiers who thought it was.
The oath I took was "I swear to support and defend the U.S. Constitution against all enemies, obey the President and their superior officers, and remain loyal to the same. " The Constitution comes first.
On a side note, my cousin is a retired police officer. First woman cop in Lansing. Hard corps, 78 and still goes to the range. I told her over dinner some months ago, that I would vote to acquit Luigi Mangione. She was aghast. "He killed someone. He has to go to jail". Ah, but she and I each took a different oath. Mine was defend my country from enemies foreign or domestic. Hers was to enforce the law. I happen to see health insurance CEO as enemies of the people.
Nopers, the troops have to keep being reminded that 'I was just following orders' doesn't work in court.
Thanks @rono for chiming in. I greatly respect your views. I don’t think the four six persons in the AD did anything wrong. I agree with everything they said. And the Pentagon “investigation” is a farce - plain and simple.
”Talk about mixed feelings. I would not have done what Kelly & team did. It is fractious and serves no good purpose other than elevate the temperature.”
OK - Perhaps it was necessary. In that case I’ll simply opine that the country is in a hell of a mess if TV ads / “messages” directed at our troops by opposing political sides is in-play. Just very sad. I can’t recall it ever happening in my experience actively following current events all the way back to Ike. The concept is absolutely bonkers in anything resembling a functioning democracy.
It also happened during Trumps first term... Pelosi was asking the joint chiefs to limit Trumps nuclear authority. I agree I never saw anything like this before Trump. In the last 50 years I never truly disliked any president either DEM or GOP, ever... before Trump. I despise him.
And just where the hell are all of the rest of the Democratic Representatives and Senators on this? They should be out there making loud supporting statements signed by every damned one of them, and massively telling Hegseth where to put it.
And the Democrats wonder why we're pissed at them. Contemptible cowards.
And just where the hell are all of the rest of the Democratic Representatives and Senators on this? They should be out there making loud supporting statements signed by every damned one of them, and massively telling Hegseth where to put it. And the Democrats wonder why we're pissed at them. Contemptible cowards.
Comments
seeking outside legal counsel for some of the Trump administration's missions.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/military-personnel-seek-legal-advice-on-whether-trump-ordered-missions-are-lawful
Talk about mixed feelings. I would not have done what Kelly & team did. It is fractious and serves no good purpose other than elevate the temperature. U.S. soldier know the law. But, I respect Kelly and his colleagues greatly. Possibly they have it right here. Would someone please turn down the thermostat before we all self destruct?
The Dept. of "War" memo posted re: Sen. Kelly is the biggest pile of termite feces in the universe. Kelly and the others can stand tall. They are not for sale, unlike all of the sycophants in the Crime and Grift Syndicate which is the Trump regime.
The video created by Kelly and several other lawmakers reminds service members
that "You can refuse illegal orders."
Trump claimed these lawmakers were guilty of seditious behavior which is obviously false.
Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice states that service members
must obey lawful orders and disobey unlawful orders.
Officers usually have legal counsel to determine if military actions are lawful.
Troops often do not have immediate access to legal counsel in these situations
and are therefore placed in a very precarious position.
I also saw the President’s posts saying I should be arrested, hanged, and put to death."
"If this is meant to intimidate me and other members of Congress from doing our jobs
and holding this administration accountable, it won’t work.
I’ve given too much to this country to be silenced by bullies
who care more about their own power than protecting the Constitution."
https://x.com/SenMarkKelly/status/1993025671757807746
What Mr. Kelly and the others have done is in the best spirit of John McCain in my book.
it was for others in service that may not realize illegal orders may have already been issued and challenge\resolution will take a long time. and until then, expect this behavior to escalate from trump on down.
what dems missed is a chance to provide service members anonymous paths to get advice, because nothing would be more on brand than brutal retaliation.
As Observant1 said-
"Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice states that service members
must obey lawful orders and disobey unlawful orders.
Officers usually have legal counsel to determine if military actions are lawful.
Troops often do not have immediate access to legal counsel in these situations
and are therefore placed in a very precarious position."
Having been enlisted, I can attest to the accuracy of that observation.
this will be the xxxxxx -th reminder that saying 'take down the temp' has no meaning to a party to which any escalation is now its core trait.
Now me wonders, Is indiscriminately killing civilians in war illegal?
Repulsive morally and all other ways, irrespective of what they may have done. Really quite something for this country, or any country.
So yeah, this is always a good time to speak up and remind drone operators of their oath. And then publicize it. Let those in charge and giving these lawless orders try and defend it.
Couldn't pass this up. While I disagree with Hank, I can understand his position. Hell, I had to block a Recon buddy on FB for a similar argument. He was opining that this sort of message from Kelly, et al. could under mind the chain of command and even encourage mutiny. Seems this would have been the sort of talk German officers would have made to the troops as they were marching the Jews to the concentration camps.
No. Trump is already using our military against civilians. It's too late to be coy. The men and women in uniform need to be told NOW that, 'I was just following orders' has never worked as a defense and there are a lot of executed soldiers who thought it was.
The oath I took was "I swear to support and defend the U.S. Constitution against all enemies, obey the President and their superior officers, and remain loyal to the same. " The Constitution comes first.
On a side note, my cousin is a retired police officer. First woman cop in Lansing. Hard corps, 78 and still goes to the range. I told her over dinner some months ago, that I would vote to acquit Luigi Mangione. She was aghast. "He killed someone. He has to go to jail". Ah, but she and I each took a different oath. Mine was defend my country from enemies foreign or domestic. Hers was to enforce the law. I happen to see health insurance CEO as enemies of the people.
Nopers, the troops have to keep being reminded that 'I was just following orders' doesn't work in court.
And BTFW, there will come a day of reckoning.
and so it goes,
peace,
rono
foursix persons in the AD did anything wrong. I agree with everything they said. And the Pentagon “investigation” is a farce - plain and simple.”Talk about mixed feelings. I would not have done what Kelly & team did. It is fractious and serves no good purpose other than elevate the temperature.”
OK - Perhaps it was necessary. In that case I’ll simply opine that the country is in a hell of a mess if TV ads / “messages” directed at our troops by opposing political sides is in-play. Just very sad. I can’t recall it ever happening in my experience actively following current events all the way back to Ike. The concept is absolutely bonkers in anything resembling a functioning democracy.
And the Democrats wonder why we're pissed at them. Contemptible cowards.