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Probably fixed now. I don’t keep a portfolio there, but tested a few funds on the M* site (7:30 PM) and it appears to have correct prices.
Since @Art posted at 12:58 PM, he must be pricing ETFs or some other securities, as the OEFs aren’t priced until after 4 PM. There are some fine trackers at Apple’s app store. “Active Portfolio” (Ad Free for $30 a year) is excellent for minute to minute pricing during the day if that’s what’s desired - and otherwise not bad. Fails only once or twice a year.
But WAIT. i've noticed such before, too: My BLX shows the correct share price at M*. But the indicated percentage rise today does not jive with a different website. I go visit Stocktwits a lot. And Stocktwits shows BLX rose by 0.53%. But M* says +1.18%. I'm not gonna do the math. It rose .20 cents, to $37.84.
When I previously checked daily security prices/changes in M*, some securities were priced correctly while others were not. Quotes were stale for several days on a few occasions. I no longer trust M* to accurately provide this data and neither should you.
It shows my portfolio bigger than I expected. I may just stop updating the portfolio with any changes and save some time, until there is an all clear from sufficient number of you.
Morningstar Portfolios have had this issue for at least ten years and they will never fix it. It seems a lot to ask for people to pay a subscription fee or (especially) to trust the opinions of their writers who may very well themselves be working with incorrect data.
I like the M* Portf. Manager because I can self-construct a list the way I want to see it. And you can create several lists, if you want that. I've taken to comparing what M* displays against my Schwab account, after log-in. The Schwab stuff is updated and accurate much sooner, always. There are other tools and features at M* I often go to, always taking it in with a a grain of salt: A.I.-generated drivel is not worth my time. But at least statistics don't lie. (LOL.)
Are you saying that you don't trust writers' analyses of funds because they might be working with data that's stale by a day or two? .
No, I am questioning Morningstar data generally, given that the data I can verify is so often flat wrong. If M* current prices and daily gain info is (obviously) incorrect, then how can I trust their 3-year Total Return figures, or their Standard Deviations, &c. And, by extension the opinions of their analysts which are derived from those figures?
When you can find human-written analyses, they are, half the time, worth reading. The A.I. generated stuff is generic pap. I use Morningstar a lot. Yes, if you give them enough TIME, their stats do catch-up to reality. They have seriously deteriorated in terms of efficiency and the moment by moment and hour-by-hour updating of the numbers displayed in Portfolio Manager. My two holdings with Weitz always report later than my other stuff. At Morningstar Portfolio Manager, my Weitz stuff often is the same stale number from the day prior. It's truly risibly bad.
Exactly. Not just M* stats but official (fund sponsor) stats as well. As of 4PM every trading day the NAV of funds is determined, metaphysically speaking. That's reality, even though the funds are just beginning to calculate the NAVs then. It takes a while for the funds' official stats to catch up with this 4PM reality. (Insert allegory of cave here, reality vs. perception.)
The official numbers are "wrong" for some period of time. I checked WCPNX (I think that's one of the funds Crash has mentioned) on Friday. Weitz didn't update its performance page until shortly before 7:15PM. About the same time, M*'s portfolio tracker (legacy version) updated as well.
But the quote page for WCPNX didn't update until about 8:45PM. It was not "flat out wrong" until then. It was stale. It stated that the NAV was as of Thursday (2/20/20). That was a correct, accurate statement. It just wasn't the one you may have been hoping to see.
When M* calculates "their Standard Deviations, &c. " they use end-of-month data. For WCPNX they use:
Risk & Volatility MeasuresUSD | Investment as of Jan 31, 2025 | Category: Intermediate Core-Plus Bond as of Jan 31, 2025 |
Whether M* had WCPNX's NAV correct that Friday evening Jan 31, or even if it took until Monday Feb 3 to get it right, doesn't matter. I don't think that M* calculated the fund's standard deviations using older Jan 30th figures.
@msf's mention of the Plato/Socrates Allegory of the Cave in regard to reality versus illusion reminds me of reading Plato fifty years ago. Those of us who read that stuff will remember that what most of us call reality was regarded as illusion by Plato, and according to Plato, Socrates. Somewhere there is a true ideal that only has reflections in our world. Which is probably why we have the old quip about whether a table is a table.
I'm not sure how that ties into reporting NAV's except to say that the prisoners in the cave probably had a better grasp of reality than good old Plato, bless his heart.
I better stop now before I start quoting Nietzche or going on about Gnosticism. Time to get to the local fitness center.
There's the real NAV (what a fund is actually worth at 4:01PM) and the perception of a fund's worth. For perhaps many hours or even days, that perception is distorted. What we perceive now is a reflection of what the NAV used to be then (stale data).
Ultimately the distortion fades as one emerges from the cave and sees the underlying assets in the light of "today" (market close). It takes some time for the fund sponsor to emerge and see reality, let alone anyone else in the cave.
All of this is somewhat similar to Schwab's posting of the market value of our Treasury and CD fixed income. It takes a fair amount of time before everything is brought up to speed. Even the internal Schwab accounting goes through different stages of accounting agreement: it's not unusual to see a newly posted amount in the sweep account, but then try to transfer that amount to the MMKT or the bank account, and there is nothing available there to transfer. It's just that the accounting software database is so large that various sections are run sequentially, and it takes a few hours for everything to come into agreement.
(Cynics will probably accuse Schwab of doing this deliberately so as to have the use of the new deposit for a couple of hours.)
Connected to this discussion: TRP has become pathetically slow, too. They are slow even to update and report daily numbers regarding their OWN mutual funds. I'm still babysitting my friend's stuff over there. Yes, they can be trusted. Yes, they have a great reputation. But I can't help noticing how inexcusably tardy they are to record routine stuff. All my friend's stuff is in common garden OEFs which are TRP funds. Also, on the last day of the month, his bond fund pays. It takes up to a FEW DAYS to get that transaction recorded and added to his portfolio. On the other hand, strangely, before the auto-deposit each month lands in his account (403b,) the pending amount IS included!
TRP uses that other, outside outfit, Pershing, to "clear" brokerage transactions, but that's not a consideration in this case. Lastly, it is annoying to log-in and see stale numbers which I fully expect will be stale, until I'm surprised to see they are not; yet TRP will unabashedly show that these numbers are current as of that very moment! In other words, you're looking at (let's say) Wednesday's numbers on a Friday morning. But FRIDAY'S date shows, as if to tell you that what you're looking at is actually current. GROWL. (M* does that, too.) And they don't just show today's date, they specify : "current as of (today.)"
Of course, OEF prices are not fixed until after 4:00 p.m. No one should be embarrassed to show that these numbers are "current as of (yesterday.")
There's the real NAV (what a fund is actually worth at 4:01PM) and the perception of a fund's worth. For perhaps many hours or even days, that perception is distorted. What we perceive now is a reflection of what the NAV used to be then (stale data).
Ultimately the distortion fades as one emerges from the cave and sees the underlying assets in the light of "today" (market close). It takes some time for the fund sponsor to emerge and see reality, let alone anyone else in the cave.
Comments
https://www.barrons.com/market-data/stocks/blx?mod=searchresults_companyquotes&mod=searchbar&search_keywords=blx&search_statement_type=suggested
Or else, I login to Schwab.
Since @Art posted at 12:58 PM, he must be pricing ETFs or some other securities, as the OEFs aren’t priced until after 4 PM. There are some fine trackers at Apple’s app store. “Active Portfolio” (Ad Free for $30 a year) is excellent for minute to minute pricing during the day if that’s what’s desired - and otherwise not bad. Fails only once or twice a year.
Edit: Looks like the daily change can be wrong on some tickers as it is picking up the difference from end of Thursday.
But WAIT. i've noticed such before, too:
My BLX shows the correct share price at M*. But the indicated percentage rise today does not jive with a different website. I go visit Stocktwits a lot. And Stocktwits shows BLX rose by 0.53%. But M* says +1.18%. I'm not gonna do the math. It rose .20 cents, to $37.84.
some securities were priced correctly while others were not.
Quotes were stale for several days on a few occasions.
I no longer trust M* to accurately provide this data and neither should you.
I'm the opposite. I wouldn't trust any analysis that was so unstable that it would change because of yesterday's performance.
How to Lie with Statistics
for the first time, legacy view toggle not working for me today.
lasted longer than i ever expected.
stats do catch-up to reality
Exactly. Not just M* stats but official (fund sponsor) stats as well. As of 4PM every trading day the NAV of funds is determined, metaphysically speaking. That's reality, even though the funds are just beginning to calculate the NAVs then. It takes a while for the funds' official stats to catch up with this 4PM reality. (Insert allegory of cave here, reality vs. perception.)
The official numbers are "wrong" for some period of time. I checked WCPNX (I think that's one of the funds Crash has mentioned) on Friday. Weitz didn't update its performance page until shortly before 7:15PM. About the same time, M*'s portfolio tracker (legacy version) updated as well.
But the quote page for WCPNX didn't update until about 8:45PM. It was not "flat out wrong" until then. It was stale. It stated that the NAV was as of Thursday (2/20/20). That was a correct, accurate statement. It just wasn't the one you may have been hoping to see.
When M* calculates "their Standard Deviations, &c. " they use end-of-month data. For WCPNX they use: Whether M* had WCPNX's NAV correct that Friday evening Jan 31, or even if it took until Monday Feb 3 to get it right, doesn't matter. I don't think that M* calculated the fund's standard deviations using older Jan 30th figures.
I'm not sure how that ties into reporting NAV's except to say that the prisoners in the cave probably had a better grasp of reality than good old Plato, bless his heart.
I better stop now before I start quoting Nietzche or going on about Gnosticism. Time to get to the local fitness center.
Ultimately the distortion fades as one emerges from the cave and sees the underlying assets in the light of "today" (market close). It takes some time for the fund sponsor to emerge and see reality, let alone anyone else in the cave.
(Cynics will probably accuse Schwab of doing this deliberately so as to have the use of the new deposit for a couple of hours.)
TRP uses that other, outside outfit, Pershing, to "clear" brokerage transactions, but that's not a consideration in this case. Lastly, it is annoying to log-in and see stale numbers which I fully expect will be stale, until I'm surprised to see they are not; yet TRP will unabashedly show that these numbers are current as of that very moment! In other words, you're looking at (let's say) Wednesday's numbers on a Friday morning. But FRIDAY'S date shows, as if to tell you that what you're looking at is actually current. GROWL. (M* does that, too.) And they don't just show today's date, they specify : "current as of (today.)"
Of course, OEF prices are not fixed until after 4:00 p.m. No one should be embarrassed to show that these numbers are "current as of (yesterday.")
do be do be doo