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Is Fidelity hiding something (Dodge and Cox funds)

msf
in Fund Discussions
Fidelity has made it difficult to find their info on D&C funds. Here's the feedback I just posted to Fidelity:
MF search engine excludes Dodge and Cox from its list of fund families. Under 'D' are Direxion Funds, followed by Domini.

Likewise, when trying to find a D&C fund (e.g. DODWX) with the search box in the upper right corner, no fund appears in a pop up (as contrasted with, say, FLPSX). When the search is actually activated, the site goes to the search return page:
https://digital.fidelity.com/search/main?q=DODWX&type=o-NavBar
That search also says that the webserver cannot find DODWX.

Yet the fund page exists:
https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/summary/256206202
Only D&C is hidden. Funds from Vanguard and Schwab (two other families with $75 transaction fees) are easily found.

Also unavailable on the website (at least I've never found it) is info on whether a given fund (any fund, not just D&C) is eligible for automatic investing. $5 per (additional) purchase is valuable enough when dealing with a $49.95 transaction fee, but even more so when the fund has a $75 transaction fee.

When I asked a phone rep about auto invest eligibility, the response was that "if we sell it, you can invest in it this way." After I pushed back, saying that I'd been blocked on other funds, the rep then checked with the back office. The good news is that the D&C funds (at least the couple that I used as test cases) are eligible for auto invest, as are most funds.

Comments

  • yogibearbullyogibearbull
    While Fido website doesn't recognize D&C funds or tickers, through an open web search, I found Fido links to several D&C I class funds (TF). It could be that Fido and D&C are negotiating new terms for Fido platform listings (NTF, TF). Schwab shows most D&C funds as TF only.

    Via Research Fidelity, https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/fund-screener/
    D&C Funds (I classes) https://digital.fidelity.com/search/funds?q=dodge & cox
    DODGX https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/ratings/256219106
  • Bitzer
    Recently, I was able to purchase DODIX through Fidelity, but my Fidelity watchlist does not recognize that symbol.
  • msf
    edited August 2023
    Yogi's first link is the MF screener I was referring to. (When one files feedback at Fidelity, one files it from a specific page, which is why I didn't include the URL to the screener in my feedback post to Fidelity). Do you see D&C in its list of fund families? Perhaps the screener is working differently for you.

    The second link uses the search engine that one gets by entering a query in the seach box from a fund page (upper left on page). This is a search restricted to funds, as opposed to a generic search available more easily from all pages. Note the subtle difference in URLs:
    https://digital.fidelity.com/search/main?q=DODWX&type=o-NavBar
    https://digital.fidelity.com/search/funds?q=DODWX&type=o-NavBar

    Interesting speculation about the firms renegotiating terms. We can hope.

    Likewise interesting that @Blitzer can't "watch" D&C funds. These funds are not entirely hidden, but they do seem to have vanished from significant swatches of Fidelity's website.

  • hank
    edited August 2023
    Thanks. Sometimes I think I might sell my remaining small D&C investment which was transferred into fido - just to avoid future hassles in any kind of rebalancing. Since you can sell for no cost, it boils down to the 3 or 4 times a year when you might want to add. ISTM with auto invest you could switch it on on for a single purchase? And than turn it back off? $5 beats $49.95.
  • Sven
    I talked with Fidelity representative more than once about this topic and the issue remained. D&C funds are sold on their TF platform but they are not listed under their Mutual Fund tab.

    This happens to funds that are undergo registration changes and they get listed again later. This happened to Rondure fund listing too. From D&C side there is no changes, very strange.
  • msf
    That's as good an explanation as any, and likely better than we're going to get from elsewhere. Though it is odd that not only have the funds vanished from the main (not fund) search engine, but the entire family has vanished as well.
    https://digital.fidelity.com/search/main?q=dodge & cox

    D&C funds may have undergone a registration change when they redesignated their original share class "class I" in May 2022. I wonder if this D&C problem has been around for a year?

    https://www.dodgeandcox.com/individual-investor/us/en/about-us/news-and-updates/new-us-news-and-updates-announcement-share-class-launch.html
  • msf
    ISTM with auto invest you could switch it on on for a single purchase? And than turn it back off?
    You have to enter at least two dates, but you can turn it off after the first one executes.

    $5 beats $49.95.
    It beats the $75 fee for D&C funds by even more:-)
  • hank
    edited August 2023
    msf said:

    ISTM with auto invest you could switch it on on for a single purchase? And than turn it back off?
    ”You have to enter at least two dates, but you can turn it off after the first one executes”.

    $5 beats $49.95.
    It beats the $75 fee for D&C funds by even more:-)

    Got it. / Thumbs Up! :)

    It’s unlikely I’ll even need that feature, but nice to know it’s available.

    And Thanks @msf

  • carew388carew388
    This may be a lowbrow approach but E-Trade sells numerous funds, including Dodge & Cox and Vanguard Funds with no transaction fee. No guarantee how long this will last, however !
  • FD1000
    It's not the first time Fidelity info isn't complete. The way I check it is by trying to trade it and then the info is correct.
  • Ben
    I invest with Dodge & Cox directly. I never had a problem. No fees for buying/selling shares. No obfuscation. No time wasted.
  • MarkMark
    @hank said
    It’s unlikely I’ll even need that feature, but nice to know it’s available.
    I sometimes use it to place buys on my TF funds when the days trading begins with a huge market dump. There is a 3-day execution delay to be aware of but sometimes that initial down day is followed by another so it works out well under those conditions.
  • FD1000
    edited August 2023
    Ben said:

    I invest with Dodge & Cox directly. I never had a problem. No fees for buying/selling shares. No obfuscation. No time wasted.

    Most don't want to have several accounts of taxable+IRA for each/a few funds they own. My only exception, which never happened, may be a fund I really want, and the only way is to buy direct, such as PRWCX, and then I will transfer it to Fidelity, Schwab.
  • hank
    edited August 2023
    I kept significant amounts directly at D&C for 25 years. Great outfit. Since opening a Fido brokerage account 2 years ago, more options than I’d ever imagined opened up. Age, too, has been a factor in wanting to combine everything under 1 umbrella. Possibly, the types of funds & distribution network that served one well at age 55 are not the same ones he / she might elect as they near 80. To each his own.
  • MrRufflesMrRuffles
    This was discussed a couple of month ago. Fido’s search box is broken.
    However, if you search for D&C funds from their fund research page, you’ll get accurate results.

    (And in reference to your title, this looks like a prime exemplar of Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”)
  • msf
    Fidelity certainly demonstrated some stupidity, or perhaps laziness - by saying that all funds were eligible for auto investment (they aren't) without even checking; by telling me to post a feedback on the webpage instead of engaging in a conversation to elicit more details. It seems @Sven was more successful in actually having a conversation with Fidelity.

    Regarding the fund research page, while the search box does work (as Yogi illustrated), the fund screener on that page fails to include D&C as a family one can search for.

    IMHO that's worse because if you don't already know that you're interested in D&C funds, you'll never run across them on the Fidelity site. Even if you screen on some criterion other than fund family, say LCV global funds, you won't know that DODWX is available.
    Screener results (no D&C)

    Before attributing malice I look for some rationale. The only one I could suggest was a bias against families that pay nothing for shelf space - D&C, Schwab, and Vanguard. But that's not what is happening. Fidelity isn't hiding Schwab or Vanguard funds.

    OTOH, I do attribute malice (aka ulterior motive) to Fidelity and Schwab for excluding TF funds from their "top funds" list. That's not stupidity, that's deliberate. In fact, one of those brokerages originally included TF funds in its list years ago, though I don't recall which one.
  • WABACWABAC
    More people ought to subscribe to MFO premium so they know what they are looking for.

    But It's not a service that will help people looking for short-term plays.

    Try and screen for external mutual funds at Vanguard.

    Can't get there from here.

    If you can find it, their screen hasn't been updated since the oughts. And half the month they only cover Vanguard funds. It takes that long for them to update the data on the other funds they sell.

    Is it malice?
  • msf
    edited August 2023
    If you can find it [at Vanguard], their screen hasn't been updated since the oughts.

    https://personal.vanguard.com/us/FundsMFSBasicSearch

    Remove Vanguard from the family list, add D&C. The screener returns all seven D&C funds, including DODEX with inception date of 5/11/21. Total returns given are as of 7/31/23.
    https://personal.vanguard.com/us/FundsMFSResults?query=0029-1420-0004-6220-

    You do raise an interesting question: is failing to provide fund listings for free malice? IMHO this is a gray area. I think it is stupidity for an institution not to provide basic listings of its offerings. That's not in an institution's best interest. OTOH, not providing screening services (beyond product listings) could be viewed as business savvy (to entice people to sign up/subscribe). MFO tries to split the difference by providing Quicksearch for free but requiring premium membership for Multisearch.

    Schwab fairly recently changed its public pages so that one cannot readily find an aggregate listing of fund offerings. That strikes me as stupid. See this MF page that gives links to fund tools that now require logins.
    https://www.schwab.com/mutual-funds/find-mutual-funds

    At least its screener is still free if you know its URL.

    Not so with other brokerages such as Firstrade and TIAA. It seems stupid not malicious to me that TIAA doesn't publicize the fact that it offers some interesting funds NTF at low mins, such as GLIFX ($10K min). I don't know how one would discover that without already being a TIAA customer. Even a direct search returns nothing (though the search box recognizes the ticker).
  • Sven
    edited August 2023
    @msf, I have been most successful talking with live Fidelity representatives in early morning (before 7 am EST) or after business hours (5 pm). Their secured messaging is slow and appears to be AI generated. My D&C question took over a week to get a canned and useless answer.

    Vanguard is getting worse for customer phone support. Being a Flagship client has no value now since they cancel that stuff awhile back. The benefit I found to be useful is 25 free trades per year for each account. I use it to buy (and sell) transaction fee funds. Fund screening for non-Vanguard funds is sparse and they need lots of improvement. Somehow I get the feeling that is intentional so to favor Vanguard funds. However, their PAS clients phone numbers are very responsive.
  • WABACWABAC
    Try finding information on other funds at the beginning of the month at Vanguard.

    For old time's sake I tried to do a search for LC value funds. If you choose domestic funds you are now stuck with all fund categories. They're breaking it M* style.

    I have been exploring Nuveen as an easier way to get readable information on TIAA funds than by going through TIAA. No screener at Nuveen. But I don't think they hold themselves out as a broker where you can buy other companies' products.

    We are stuck with TIAA due to some of my wife's retirement assets. And the choices are strictly limited.

    I can't imagine choosing to open a brokerage account there based on a drive-by of their website. I can't imagine opening a brokerage account there based on my experiences logged into my wife's account.

  • msf
    Try finding information on other funds at the beginning of the month at Vanguard.

    Poke me on Sept 1 and I'll give it a try (and also look at data available on other sites then).

    Try finding information on other funds at the beginning of the month at Vanguard.
    That's a bug in the screener. If it were a feature, it wouldn't show a fund category criterion. The tool fails to populate the category selections for all fund types, not just domestic funds. Whether that is a software bug or a data bug (Vanguard failing to supply the categories for each fund type) isn't clear.

    Similarly, Fidelity failing to include D&C in its screener's fund family selection box is a bug.

    And the [TIAA retirement] choices are strictly limited.
    On the retirement side investment choices are limited by what the employer plan (e.g. 403(b)) offers, just as they are with most employer plans. OTOH, your wife has access to TIAA Trad and TREA which are unavailable on the retail side. Access to TREA makes opening an IRA on the retirement side almost worthwhile.

    I can't imagine opening a brokerage account there based on my experiences logged into my wife's account.
    TIAA has undoubtedly one of the worst sites I've ever seen. Trying to find something like the annuitization rate for a specific Trad annuity is nearly impossible. Last time I tried I think it took me around an hour.

    All that said, TIAA does seem to provide access to some appealing funds that are difficult to find (NTF and low min) elsewhere. I haven't done a detailed comparison with E*Trade to see if the latter has everything that TIAA has. It does offer GLIFX with the same terms as TIAA - NTF, $10K min.

    But unless one has a TIAA account (and is willing to navigate its website), one will never know what's there. Stupidity, ineptness, but not malice by TIAA.



  • yogibearbullyogibearbull
    edited August 2023
    TIAA Brokerage is via Pershing/BK. So, things are clunky.

    Nonretirement stuff at TIAA is only for those with retirement accounts that WANT to stick around for consolidation of accounts. TIAA hasn't made serious efforts to attract general investors. Even some non-plan accounts require TIAA-eligibility.

    TIAA is complicated, to say the least. I have started a "TIAA Group by YBB" on Facebook for those with TIAA needs and/or interests. Elsewhere, TIAA is misunderstood and may remain so.
  • WABACWABAC
    Poke me on Sept 1 and I'll give it a try (and also look at data available on other sites then).

    That's giving my memory a lot of credit.

    That's a bug in the screener. If it were a feature, it wouldn't show a fund category criterion. The tool fails to populate the category selections for all fund types, not just domestic funds. Whether that is a software bug or a data bug (Vanguard failing to supply the categories for each fund type) isn't clear.


    It was working when I left. :).
  • msf
    Nonretirement stuff at TIAA is only for those with retirement accounts that WANT to stick around for consolidation of accounts.

    Fer sure, mostly. Though TIAA does have a product or two that some without retirement accounts might want to buy. I've mentioned TREA (one only has to be related to someone with a retirement account, not be a retirement account owner to be eligible).

    Another is TIAA's vanilla deferred VA, "Intelligent Variable Annuity", especially if one likes Vanguard funds. Vanguard no longer offers its own VA - it outsourced it to Transamerica. The Transamerica VA has base M&E expenses of 0.27%. The TIAA VA charges 0.35% for $100K-$500K, 0.25% for AUM above that. While that may be initially a bit higher than Transamerica, the kicker is that after 10 years, the wrapper fees drop to 10 basis points.

    The TIAA VA offers most of the same Vanguard and DFA portfolios as Transamerica, while also offering a variety of TIAA portfolios (obviously) plus portfolios from Franklin, Janus, PIMCO, T. Rowe Price and others. All are low cost share classes (as opposed to other providers like Fidelity that may offer the same portfolios with higher ERs).

    Transamerica VA offerings (see p. 3)
    TIAA VA offerings
    Fidelity VA offerings (compare PIMCO VIT Real Return 0.77% admin class E/R with TIAA's 0.52% inst class E/R)

    Not that these are for most people. Just suggesting that TIAA products are not only for those with existing retirement accounts at TIAA.
  • yogibearbullyogibearbull
    True, TIAA has SOME products for general public. But it keeps dropping many - LTCI, life insurance, etc. Some of its IRAs require TIAA-eligibility - some connection with TIAA due to current/prior job by self or close family members.

    Likewise, there are Nuveen CEFs. Anyone can buy these through brokers. CEFConnect site is run by Nuveen/TIAA. Old Nuveen (Chicago) was bought by TIAA in 2014 and operates as a unit/subsidiary within TIAA. However, TIAA did start using the Nuveen name (only) for its entire asset/investment management - that confused people more.
    https://www.cefconnect.com/

    TIAA recently unwound its EverBank acquisition (2016-23). Will it sell/spinoff old Nuveen too? CEFs are far from mainstream TIAA lineup.
  • msf
    Regarding Nuveen/TIAA - According to M* (see "Parent" section under TIAA funds), the rebranding of its entire asset/investment management to Nuveen was more than cosmetic. TIAA centralized virtually all its investment teams as well as all its operations, technology, and sales functions. Its investment management really is just one entity now.

    It wasn't just TIAA and Nuveen, but also other units that were integrated. In 2016, TIAA described its plans for managing real assets:
    The new standalone division will wrap in many of TIAA-CREF’s largest units, including global real estate, agriculture, timber, infrastructure, and energy. In addition, the real assets group is to take over subsidiaries TH Real Estate, Westchester Group Investment Management, GreenWood Resources, and Churchill Asset Management.

    All told, TIAA-CREF expected the real assets business to comprise roughly 900 staff members in 16 countries.
    https://www.ai-cio.com/news/tiaa-cref-reveals-reorganization/

    Regarding Fidelity's fund screener missing fund families - it's not just D&C that is missing (though that's arguably the most egregious). The screener has an option to include ETFs in its search but it doesn't include ETFs from fund families that don't sell OEFs.

    You won't find WisdomTree in its list of fund families or its funds in the search results. With Blackrock, you'll find Blackrock branded ETFs like BRLN, but no iShares by Blackrock branded ETFs. OTOH, you'll find all of Vanguard's ETFs.
    image
    On the fund screener, Fidelity writes:
    "For more detailed information, including intraday pricing, please visit the ETF Screener"

    The message is not that you should use the ETF screener to find ETFs. Rather, just use the ETF screener if you want additional details about ETFs that are already found.
  • davidrmorandavidrmoran
    edited August 2023
    fwiw (ML customers): the older established D&C funds are $20 at ML while the mighty FPACX has no charges at all.

    (Was SRomick really only 27 when he started it?)

    OT:
    If you review the last 12y here of Romick discussion (all there is), it includes a massive amount of kvetching about the guy, including some by me, lots of it pointed --- look how crappy his underperformance is across [[timespan x]], I am not paying someone such a high ER to hold so much cash (this over and over), and on and on. Woeful and gloomy interviews with and predictions by the guy.

    This for essentially a youngster who has dramatically beaten the very different DODBX and FBALX over the last 30y.

    There must be a lesson or three here, if only I had learned them, or could :) .
  • MrRufflesMrRuffles
    davidrmoran said:

    fwiw (ML customers): D&C funds are $20 at ML while the mighty FPACX has no charges at all.

    Both are NTF at ETrade.
  • msf
    davidrmoran said:

    fwiw (ML customers): D&C funds are $20 at ML

    Except for DODLX and DODEX - not available at ML at any price. Spoke with a rep several months ago who "explained" this is because ML doesn't generally sell institutional (class 'I') shares at the retail level.

    All D&C retail shares (e.g. DODGX) were redesignated class I on May 2, 2022. ML sells all of them to retail investors except for the two youngest funds: DODLX and now DODEX.

    https://www.dodgeandcox.com/individual-investor/us/en/about-us/news-and-updates/new-us-news-and-updates-announcement-share-class-launch.html

  • davidrmorandavidrmoran
    edited, tnx
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