Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
I didn't watch the video. But if the argument that it has no fundamental value -- the same argument could be made of those green pieces of paper -- or even the plastic - in our wallets. -- They have value because someone else: sovereigns or Visa, say they do.
I own no crypto. But look, the problem to which crypto purports to be the solution is the ongoing debasement of fiat currency --- that debasement constitutes theft -- theft of one's labor/efforts.
Imagine you are a resident of Zimbabwei, Iran, Venezuela, etc. Somehow, you are able to eke out an existence and save a bit. -- If you save your money in LC, your funds are constantly debased. If you seek to exchange your LC for USD, the govt may not allow you to, or may charge you an exorbitant FX fee. Ditto with gold. And where exactly do you safely store your USD or gold? For that matter, a lot countries cannot even trust their banking system -- they or their parents -- have lived through wholesale devaluations Notably, India -- a country which is dominated by small, family businesses which use cash did a "de-monetization". It was hastily announced and implemented, and a lot of legitimate businesses and households had a lot of their rupees invalidated because the banks would not process their exchanges prior to the deadline.
Many east Asian cultures have an absolute distrust -- with good reason -- of their govt-sanctioned banking regimes.
We could also discuss how here in the US, the Govt's bank has increased the M2 money supply by 40% since Covid -- and now the Fed is "shocked, shocked" that the result is inflation... In the 1930's, Roosevelt ordered the confiscation of private gold -- right before he devalued the USD against gold.
My point: govts have a "trust problem" with their fiat currencies. They've created the problem. Indeed the history of human civilization is the history of currency debasement. Now the govt wants to "help people" by outlawing crypto? This is the equivalent of the fox guarding the hen house.
Anti-crypto govt crusaders often cite that crypto is used to hide drug money.
I'm sure it is. But for every drug king-pin who uses it, there are 10,000s of ordinary people who use it.
Given the awesome technical surveillance abilities of the US govt, its within their power to identify where the drugs are grown and processed and who the big boys are -- and to covertly "take out the assets". Its also within their power to largely seal the border across which the drugs are trafficked. Instead, we have mass waves of male border crossings -- which provide distractions to our under-resourced border patrols, so the smugglers can enter at other points.. The open border also facilitates human trafficking, but strangely, the liberals who bemoan the human trafficking within the US refuse to suggest we cut off the supply -- at the border.
The govt can choose to stop (or severely disrupt) the drug trade. Probably a lot of govt officials are on the take at the highest levels. One (living-) President's son is a known crack addict and has bragged on a recording about he (the son) has the President's ear.
So please, no arguments that crypto needs to be banned to stop drugs. That is a straw man argument. They basically wish to continue to debase the currency at their will. Indeed some left-wing academics have suggested a "Fed-issued" crypto to eventually replace currency -- so that govt can know every transaction we have, and further control us down to the transaction level.
Rant, rant, rant. Liberals are not the enemy; they just want to see us collectively aim higher than the status quo. Better libraries, education system, equitable economy, HEALTHCARE. Their big problem is that they can't get out of their own way, and some of them just plain advocate for some trivial and silly shit.
Conservatives? Too many of them simply need brain transplants, and maybe then they'd be able to look beyond the Fox "News" propaganda bullshit. In my golden years, I am becoming more conservative, but I don't drink the Fox Kool-Aid. Perfect equality will never happen. Yet a more equitable society would be a vastly better arrangement than what we live with currently.
Crypto? A tool to avoid debasement of legal tender currency sponsored by governments? It's the same as printing counterfeit money. ...What this all comes down to is the very purpose and function of government: to serve the people. If government(s) are doing a stinky job of it, that does not obviate the need for (good or better) government, to maintain order, provide for roads, schools, hospitals, transportation, military and all the rest of it.
My wife comes from a shit-hole country where the whole economy seems sometimes to be "underground," to avoid taxes. At the airport, they won't let you on the plane before you pay the airport tax. Every individual. Why? Because gov't there cannot trust the airline to collect the fee and then hand it over to the Treasury. I know about deep distrust of government. I have seen the way that ostensibly legitimate businesses, including airlines, operate as if taxes are for everyone ELSE to pay.
Crypto is the invention of the criminally-minded. Yes, I say that, even knowing that some countries are actually establishing crypto-currency for themselves. The Marshall Islands and a few others... It's simply unethical. The perfect example of the distinction between what's legal, and what's ethical.
The Fed's money printing has been the biggest contributor to IN-equality during the past 20 years or so. --- As they have blown asset bubbles, everywhere. Who owns most of the stocks and bonds which have had asset bubbles? -- The wealthy.
Its not the same as "printing counterfeit money". -- No one believes bitcoin is the USD. People want OUT of the USD. So your counterfeiting argument is easily discarded. Is gold "counterfeit money"? Of course not.
Crypto the "invention of the criminally-minded". You sound like an expert. --So you must be aware that most financial institutions (banks, etc) are working feverishly to incorporate the underlying blockchain technology which is the basis for crypto, to service their existing businesses. --- So will you ban them from using blockchain technology? If not, then there goes your whole IN-equality argument: you want the wealthy to benefit from blockchain, but not the little guy.
As for liberals spending for more libraries etc, fine, let them propose/pass tax increases, rather then debase the currency. --- Its the debasement of the currency which is the raison d'etre for crypto.
Do you have an alternative to prevent sovereign currency debasement? Or is that crickets I hear?
I think we do need to revisit the very term "liberal". Its use in the political arena a few hundred years ago was those persons who wished to "liberate" individuals from government overreach (i.e. "tyranny").
That of course is exactly the opposite of the inclination of self-proclaimed liberals in the West today. What we call "liberal" are those who wish to remove freedom from people by enacting ever more regulations/laws which restrict individual action. -- I cannot recall President Biden using the word "freedom" in public statements when he is discussing domestic political goals...
What liberals are, really are "statists" -- favoring the centralization of power around the chosen few who run the govt. -- They no longer are our servants, but our masters.
The above is in no way partisan. I would classify Bush 43 as a statist too. -- delivering new govt largesse (Medicare Part D) with no funding attached to it. And enacting the "Patriot Act" legislation which codified much of the surveillance state we now have.
I wonder how many rapid-fire military assault weapons Edmond owns. We wouldn't want "statists" to deprive anyone of their freedom to use them any time they feel sufficiently aggrieved, would we?
Well of course right after I comment, Voyager files for bankcrupcy and 100,000 people essentially lose their money. They are never getting that back. What a crock.
Hard to feel sorry for folks duped into thinking they were getting 18% annual interest with no more risk than in an FDIC insured account. Some were even led to believe their money was safer than in a bank. I guess it goes to show that people are gonna believe what they want to believe.
Not referencing any particular company or currency. Just elucidating on what I’ve been picking up from the WSJ’s daily drumbeat of news around this issue. -
@Old_Joe. Thanks for the pertinent comment. Still too torn over the latest mass shooting to address that one. Last one I know of was Monday - but haven’t turned on the news yet today.
I've been thinking about "statists" and their insufferable rules. Specifically, the "statists" who are responsible for providing us with MFO. There’s a prime example of those who just love to curtail our freedoms.
Because the great majority of MFO posters have made it very clear that they do not appreciate politically slanted postings, the managers of MFO have provided an Off Topic section where commentary not specific to financial matters may be posted, and they have requested that MFO members observe that protocol.
But not Edmond- he won’t stand for having his “freedom” to say whatever he wants wherever he wants subjected to any rules. How dare they!
Why, just look at how the statists attempt to restrict freedom lovers like Edmond: they make rules and laws that tell Edmond’s folks that…
• they should respect and honor provably honest election practices • they shouldn’t try to intimidate perfectly honest poll workers • they shouldn’t attempt to pressure honest election officials to lie about the results • they shouldn’t attempt to overthrow Congress to prevent the results of an honest election from being recognized
That’ll do for a start.
Let’s hope that someone shuts this post down before it gets really nasty.
I just find the notion that crypto is somehow liberating people, and poor people especially, absurd. These are largely unregulated markets manipulated and controlled by a handful of wealthy investors and speculators: https://cnbc.com/2019/11/04/study-single-anonymous-market-manipulator-pushed-bitcoin-to-20000.html Moreover, if paper currency "debasement" is theft, what can one say of the profits investors routinely extract from stocks and bonds of companies they do not work for, especially in the case of securities trading in the secondary market? Outside investors trading stocks and bonds that aren't providing new capital for companies to grow are essentially profiting off the labor of the employees of companies they invest in while doing no work for those companies at all. Isn't that a kind of theft?
At least in the case of the dollar, the currency is being debased via the issuance of Treasury bonds used to pay for all sorts of government services for citizens. And that currency is regulated by a centralized government that is democratically elected by its citizens. No such central regulation exists for bitcoin, but if our currency is thoroughly undermined by it, it will cause immeasurable damage to the USA. As the world reserve currency, the dollar has the benefit of being the currency oil and gold are priced in. Anytime some country wants to buy a barrel they have to purchase dollars to do so. It's funny but some of our worst enemies like Russia want the dollar to collapse for this reason.
"a centralized government that is democratically elected by its citizens"
Well, there you go again. Edmond's bunch can't live with that. They have the freedom to have any kind of government that they want... to hell with everyone else.
"a centralized government that is democratically elected by its citizens"
Well, there you go again. Edmond's bunch can't live with that. They have the freedom to have any kind of government that they want... to hell with everyone else.
Joe: You seem to think that I am with some "bunch". I am just speaking for me. You suggest that I may have assault weapons. I don't. Assault weapons were not the topic of this thread. I did not interject them into the thread. They have nothing to do with matters financial. Frankly, your attitude on this thread is to not debate ideas, but to simply be snarky and apparently to try and deride me by innuendo, rather than having a discussion of ideas. You have the freedom (no hyphens needed) to do so. But really, it comes off as intellectually lazy.
Edmond observes that my comments regarding right-wing fondness for guns is out of order because "They have nothing to do with matters financial."
However, he allows himself quite a lot of slack in this thread in commenting on non-financial matters. Here's just a few:
• "we have mass waves of male border crossings" • "Probably a lot of govt officials are on the take at the highest levels." • "One (living-) President's son is a known crack addict" • "What we call "liberal" are those who wish to remove freedom from people" • "What liberals are, really are 'statists' " • "They no longer are our servants, but our masters." • "The above is in no way partisan."
So, as usual with this bunch, it's one set of rules for them and another for everyone else. If one points this out, it's just evidence of being "intellectually lazy".
And I'm pretty sure that there's no misunderstanding about what kind of "bunch" we're talking about here. Lie down with dogs, and all of that...
Comments
I own no crypto. But look, the problem to which crypto purports to be the solution is the ongoing debasement of fiat currency --- that debasement constitutes theft -- theft of one's labor/efforts.
Imagine you are a resident of Zimbabwei, Iran, Venezuela, etc. Somehow, you are able to eke out an existence and save a bit. -- If you save your money in LC, your funds are constantly debased. If you seek to exchange your LC for USD, the govt may not allow you to, or may charge you an exorbitant FX fee. Ditto with gold. And where exactly do you safely store your USD or gold? For that matter, a lot countries cannot even trust their banking system -- they or their parents -- have lived through wholesale devaluations Notably, India -- a country which is dominated by small, family businesses which use cash did a "de-monetization". It was hastily announced and implemented, and a lot of legitimate businesses and households had a lot of their rupees invalidated because the banks would not process their exchanges prior to the deadline.
Many east Asian cultures have an absolute distrust -- with good reason -- of their govt-sanctioned banking regimes.
We could also discuss how here in the US, the Govt's bank has increased the M2 money supply by 40% since Covid -- and now the Fed is "shocked, shocked" that the result is inflation... In the 1930's, Roosevelt ordered the confiscation of private gold -- right before he devalued the USD against gold.
My point: govts have a "trust problem" with their fiat currencies. They've created the problem. Indeed the history of human civilization is the history of currency debasement. Now the govt wants to "help people" by outlawing crypto? This is the equivalent of the fox guarding the hen house.
Cont'd next post..
Anti-crypto govt crusaders often cite that crypto is used to hide drug money.
I'm sure it is. But for every drug king-pin who uses it, there are 10,000s of ordinary people who use it.
Given the awesome technical surveillance abilities of the US govt, its within their power to identify where the drugs are grown and processed and who the big boys are -- and to covertly "take out the assets". Its also within their power to largely seal the border across which the drugs are trafficked. Instead, we have mass waves of male border crossings -- which provide distractions to our under-resourced border patrols, so the smugglers can enter at other points.. The open border also facilitates human trafficking, but strangely, the liberals who bemoan the human trafficking within the US refuse to suggest we cut off the supply -- at the border.
The govt can choose to stop (or severely disrupt) the drug trade. Probably a lot of govt officials are on the take at the highest levels. One (living-) President's son is a known crack addict and has bragged on a recording about he (the son) has the President's ear.
So please, no arguments that crypto needs to be banned to stop drugs. That is a straw man argument. They basically wish to continue to debase the currency at their will. Indeed some left-wing academics have suggested a "Fed-issued" crypto to eventually replace currency -- so that govt can know every transaction we have, and further control us down to the transaction level.
I wonder how Hunter would like that?
Conservatives? Too many of them simply need brain transplants, and maybe then they'd be able to look beyond the Fox "News" propaganda bullshit. In my golden years, I am becoming more conservative, but I don't drink the Fox Kool-Aid. Perfect equality will never happen. Yet a more equitable society would be a vastly better arrangement than what we live with currently.
Crypto? A tool to avoid debasement of legal tender currency sponsored by governments? It's the same as printing counterfeit money. ...What this all comes down to is the very purpose and function of government: to serve the people. If government(s) are doing a stinky job of it, that does not obviate the need for (good or better) government, to maintain order, provide for roads, schools, hospitals, transportation, military and all the rest of it.
My wife comes from a shit-hole country where the whole economy seems sometimes to be "underground," to avoid taxes. At the airport, they won't let you on the plane before you pay the airport tax. Every individual. Why? Because gov't there cannot trust the airline to collect the fee and then hand it over to the Treasury. I know about deep distrust of government. I have seen the way that ostensibly legitimate businesses, including airlines, operate as if taxes are for everyone ELSE to pay.
Crypto is the invention of the criminally-minded. Yes, I say that, even knowing that some countries are actually establishing crypto-currency for themselves. The Marshall Islands and a few others... It's simply unethical. The perfect example of the distinction between what's legal, and what's ethical.
The Fed's money printing has been the biggest contributor to IN-equality during the past 20 years or so. --- As they have blown asset bubbles, everywhere. Who owns most of the stocks and bonds which have had asset bubbles? -- The wealthy.
Its not the same as "printing counterfeit money". -- No one believes bitcoin is the USD. People want OUT of the USD. So your counterfeiting argument is easily discarded. Is gold "counterfeit money"? Of course not.
Crypto the "invention of the criminally-minded". You sound like an expert. --So you must be aware that most financial institutions (banks, etc) are working feverishly to incorporate the underlying blockchain technology which is the basis for crypto, to service their existing businesses. --- So will you ban them from using blockchain technology? If not, then there goes your whole IN-equality argument: you want the wealthy to benefit from blockchain, but not the little guy.
As for liberals spending for more libraries etc, fine, let them propose/pass tax increases, rather then debase the currency. --- Its the debasement of the currency which is the raison d'etre for crypto.
Do you have an alternative to prevent sovereign currency debasement? Or is that crickets I hear?
That of course is exactly the opposite of the inclination of self-proclaimed liberals in the West today. What we call "liberal" are those who wish to remove freedom from people by enacting ever more regulations/laws which restrict individual action. -- I cannot recall President Biden using the word "freedom" in public statements when he is discussing domestic political goals...
What liberals are, really are "statists" -- favoring the centralization of power around the chosen few who run the govt. -- They no longer are our servants, but our masters.
The above is in no way partisan. I would classify Bush 43 as a statist too. -- delivering new govt largesse (Medicare Part D) with no funding attached to it. And enacting the "Patriot Act" legislation which codified much of the surveillance state we now have.
Hard to feel sorry for folks duped into thinking they were getting 18% annual interest with no more risk than in an FDIC insured account. Some were even led to believe their money was safer than in a bank. I guess it goes to show that people are gonna believe what they want to believe.
Not referencing any particular company or currency. Just elucidating on what I’ve been picking up from the WSJ’s daily drumbeat of news around this issue.
-
@Old_Joe. Thanks for the pertinent comment. Still too torn over the latest mass shooting to address that one. Last one I know of was Monday - but haven’t turned on the news yet today.
Because the great majority of MFO posters have made it very clear that they do not appreciate politically slanted postings, the managers of MFO have provided an Off Topic section where commentary not specific to financial matters may be posted, and they have requested that MFO members observe that protocol.
But not Edmond- he won’t stand for having his “freedom” to say whatever he wants wherever he wants subjected to any rules. How dare they!
Why, just look at how the statists attempt to restrict freedom lovers like Edmond: they make rules and laws that tell Edmond’s folks that…
• they should respect and honor provably honest election practices
• they shouldn’t try to intimidate perfectly honest poll workers
• they shouldn’t attempt to pressure honest election officials to lie about the results
• they shouldn’t attempt to overthrow Congress to prevent the results of an honest election from being recognized
That’ll do for a start.
Let’s hope that someone shuts this post down before it gets really nasty.
At least in the case of the dollar, the currency is being debased via the issuance of Treasury bonds used to pay for all sorts of government services for citizens. And that currency is regulated by a centralized government that is democratically elected by its citizens. No such central regulation exists for bitcoin, but if our currency is thoroughly undermined by it, it will cause immeasurable damage to the USA. As the world reserve currency, the dollar has the benefit of being the currency oil and gold are priced in. Anytime some country wants to buy a barrel they have to purchase dollars to do so. It's funny but some of our worst enemies like Russia want the dollar to collapse for this reason.
Well, there you go again. Edmond's bunch can't live with that. They have the freedom to have any kind of government that they want... to hell with everyone else.
You suggest that I may have assault weapons. I don't. Assault weapons were not the topic of this thread. I did not interject them into the thread. They have nothing to do with matters financial. Frankly, your attitude on this thread is to not debate ideas, but to simply be snarky and apparently to try and deride me by innuendo, rather than having a discussion of ideas.
You have the freedom (no hyphens needed) to do so. But really, it comes off as intellectually lazy.
However, he allows himself quite a lot of slack in this thread in commenting on non-financial matters. Here's just a few:
• "we have mass waves of male border crossings"
• "Probably a lot of govt officials are on the take at the highest levels."
• "One (living-) President's son is a known crack addict"
• "What we call "liberal" are those who wish to remove freedom from people"
• "What liberals are, really are 'statists' "
• "They no longer are our servants, but our masters."
• "The above is in no way partisan."
So, as usual with this bunch, it's one set of rules for them and another for everyone else. If one points this out, it's just evidence of being "intellectually lazy".
And I'm pretty sure that there's no misunderstanding about what kind of "bunch" we're talking about here. Lie down with dogs, and all of that...