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Recommendations for new fund house?

edited May 2021 in Fund Discussions
Planning to move some $$ from TRP after dealing with poor service the past 4-6 months. My thinking is to start small - probably at Fido. Get a mm fund with check writing up and running. If happy with their service, website, etc. expand that out to some IRA transfers in. I’d like to think TRP will get their front office back in order soon. But it’s been a most frustrating 4-5 months dating back to January - if not earlier.

Some explanation.

In January I put through a change of address. Got confirmation promptly online. Double-checked with a phone call same day. Yet 3 weeks later they sent a fresh pack of blank checks to the old address. After that, out of security concerns, I switched to all-electronic delivery of statements. Worked fine for 3 months (at least I assume) until last week when a complete monthly account statement displaying Roth, Traditional and TOD account info arrived U.S. mail. Called TRP again. Was told having the existing check writing feature active on the TOD money fund would require being sent monthly paper statements on all accounts from now on. Geez - I didn’t even know they had monthly statements. So, during that call I axed the check writing feature.

Now, a few days later, another paper statement shows up in the mail - this one’s confirming a small exchange I made a week ago. Called again. Inquired as to the date the mailing of paper statements had resumed so I’d know they were all correctly delivered. They say they cannot look back in time as to whether a statement was delivered by mail or electronically. Asked to speak to tech support and was denied. And I haven’t even mentioned the lengthy phone delays often encountered.


What’s Important to me

- Decent number and variety of managed funds: Growth, value, income, allocation funds, sector funds

- Ability to move funds from old custodian to new one electronically.

- Ability to move money between funds fairly regularly without trading fees. 30 day “blocks” are OK.

- Load free with reasonable ERs

- Option to defer taxes when taking IRA distributions (probably pretty common)

- e delivery of documents

- free checkwriting

- $2500 or lower initial fund purchase
«134

Comments

  • edited May 2021
    Here’s a list of the 50 largest houses. Some are load-based. Any stand out as worthy of consideration? The number on the right references total number of distinct fund offerings.

    SOURCE

    Retail Net Assets # of distinct funds

    1 Fidelity Investments $984,173,589,258 315
    2 Vanguard Group $962,331,327,507 148
    3 American Funds $956,584,547,987 42
    4 Franklin Templeton Investments $377,385,331,414 122
    5 T. Rowe Price & Co. $345,725,591,811 110
    6 Columbia Management $167,493,529,444 140
    7 Dodge & Cox $126,826,526,974 5
    8 OppenheimerFunds $125,473,946,434 72
    9 John Hancock Funds $119,789,419,458 225
    10 Pacific Investment Management Co. $118,411,876,036 73
    11 Invesco Ltd. $95,323,126,745 92
    12 BlackRock Inc. $90,785,119,662 116
    13 Janus Capital Group $84,717,855,431 48
    14 American Century Investments $71,948,919,961 86
    15 MFS Investment Management $71,059,542,832 74
    16 Lord Abbett & Co. $66,647,971,069 42
    17 ING Retirement $58,294,891,374 150
    18 Wells Fargo Advantage Funds $48,938,991,118 101
    19 Putnam Investments $48,697,487,901 79
    20 AllianceBernstein Inc. $48,012,344,847 74
    21 Eaton Vance Corp. $45,749,419,375 91
    22 DWS Investments $43,664,723,778 67
    23 JPMorgan Funds $43,495,216,232 108
    24 USAA $41,901,152,367 41
    25 Legg Mason Inc. $40,997,886,898 87
    26 Hartford Mutual Funds $39,801,202,624 81
    27 Dreyfus Funds $35,223,057,365 105
    28 Ivy Funds $34,953,774,009 30
    29 First Eagle Funds $34,849,628,600 5
    30 Northern Funds $34,626,707,067 51
    31 Schwab Funds $34,218,636,841 47
    32 Principal Funds $33,220,356,251 63
    33 Prudential Investments $32,560,310,174 44
    34 Thornburg Investment Management $30,706,861,162 16
    35 Royce Funds $30,583,106,754 30
    36 Russell Investments $29,943,773,637 39
    37 Artisan Funds $28,990,199,955 12
    38 Federated Investors $27,512,268,214 66
    39 Goldman Sachs Asset Management $26,350,742,126 72
    40 Pioneer Investments $24,616,061,833 37
    41 Davis Funds $24,203,544,825 8
    42 Natixis Funds $22,552,861,400 28
    43 Oakmark Funds $22,312,816,162 7
    44 Waddell & Reed Inc. $21,894,219,733 22
    45 VALIC $20,406,552,997 45
    46 TIAA-CREF $20,067,405,527 50
    47 Nuveen Investments $19,271,984,888 106
    48 Delaware Investments $18,747,941,089 64
    49 Vantagepoint Funds $18,216,359,065 29
    50 MainStay Funds $18,123,576,513 43
    Source: Morningstar
  • If you’re happy with your TRP funds but not happy with their service, are you planning on transferring your TRP funds in-kind to a new house? Both Schwab and Fido offer most TRP funds NTF (Based on my limited data, Schwab seems to have the edge in number of NTF TRP funds.)

    Trading stocks and NTF funds is free at both. No IRA maintenance fees depending the size of your account. Both offer a wide variety of load-waived funds. In general, buying TF funds costs $75 to buy at Schwab and $50 to buy at Fidelity, selling is free.

    When needed I’ve had good service from both and have been able to handle most transactions (including asset and wire transfers) electronically without the need to contact a rep.
  • Having gone through this exercise a few years ago when vanguard unfairly dropped their decently integrated banking services, I was on the verge of moving to Fidelity and hit 2 roadblocks :
    1. their may be some funds that are restricted from transfer, probably the good ones. (e.g., admiral and primecap for vanguard). serious golden handcuffs.
    2. the moved funds may not count towards your asset limit to get the best benefits. in which case, you may have to move cash-like assets, or worse, realize tax gains just to get a similar holding.

    in the end, i had to open a conventional online bank account with needed services (capital1 , a nightmare in itself since it took almost 9 months to set up due to repeated administrative hassles)

    let us know if there is a silver bullet solution.
  • edited May 2021
    Thanks @MrRuffles

    How fast can I go online and set up a transfer? I’d imagine some paperwork required, especially for checking?

    Wonder where I got the impression there was a trading fee at Fido? I think it might apply to funds held for shorter periods - like under 60 days?

    That’s probably the smarter option - at least for my 3 or 4 largest holdings at TRP. I’ve looked at Fido for an offering similar to PRIHX (limited term high yield muni) and don’t see one.

    With a brokerage …

    - Can you do the in-kind transfers individually (rather than all at once)?

    - Is tax reporting essentially the same?

    - I’d assume those could be easily performed online using account numbers, etc.?
  • edited May 2021
    Delete
  • edited May 2021
    @hank

    PRIHX is available NTF at both Fido and Schwab so you could easily transfer your holdings.

    Some funds do have short-term redemption fees but they’re clearly laid out.

    It’s been a while since I opened a new account but I think you can do it online with minimal, if any, paperwork. I’m not sure whether any of the check writing options allow you to write checks on money market funds. I’ve had a checking account with Schwab for ages (all ATM fees reimbursed, no added foreign transaction fees) and just transfer funds from my brokerage accounts as needed - the funds transfer instantaneously.

    My experience with inter-brokerage transfers I’ve done among TRP, Schwab, and Fido is that they're completed pretty quickly (in about a week). You select your originating broker, enter your account information, and specify what you want transferred. You don’t have to transfer your whole account - you can transfer selected holdings (note that the originating broker may charge you a fee but with a new account you can usually get the receiving broker to reimburse the fees).

    Tax reporting is similar across them all - you’ll get your usual 1099s.
  • edited May 2021
    What kind of minimum balance are we looking at in a brokerage cash account? Am I incorrect about that requirement? Perhaps it only applies in non retirement accounts?
  • edited May 2021
    Thanks @MrRuffles -:)
  • Good luck with your decision @hank.

    One small component to many but very big to me is a local brick and mortar presence. I definitely appreciate walking into my local Charles Schwab office and talking with my free-to-me advisor. Once or twice a year I meet with him just to shoot the sh-- and bounce ideas off him. If I have any how-to-do questions he gets me answers or we work through it in his office. I'm not a phone guy nor a "msg me" guy. I like old fashion face to face.

    Just a consideration.
  • Along those lines, another thing to keep in mind is that some brokers offer a higher level of service based on the total assets you have with them. Fido’s Premium Service kicks in when your household has over $250K in its accounts. Schwab used to, but no longer, has formal service tiers based on your assets.
  • edited May 2021
    Mike said, “I'm not a phone guy”

    I used to be. But cost-cutting is the name of the game now. Looks like everyone from Amazon to TRP have made phone contact near meaningless.

    Reason I was curious whether there’s any really good ones left.
  • edited May 2021
    FWIW - I have been with Fidelity for over 50 years with hardly a hiccup. Any problems (all minor) were handled promptly with less than a 10 min phone call. No hassles working through their phone menu to obtain an actual human on the other end.

    What they don't have is possibly every last mutual fund you'd like to own with or without purchase fees but they have a large selection as you've already documented. A nice recent option was the incorporation of many TRP funds in their stables. Great research options across the board. I've been quite happy.
  • edited May 2021
    MikeM said:

    Good luck with your decision @hank.

    One small component to many but very big to me is a local brick and mortar presence. I definitely appreciate walking into my local Charles Schwab office and talking with my free-to-me advisor. Once or twice a year I meet with him just to shoot the sh-- and bounce ideas off him. If I have any how-to-do questions he gets me answers or we work through it in his office. I'm not a phone guy nor a "msg me" guy. I like old fashion face to face.

    Just a consideration.

    Same here. Edward Jones has an office here, but "by appt. only." Otherwise, I'd have to navigate the big city, which is a cluster-fuck of one-way streets. "You can't get there from here." Somehow, I've ended up with a negative impression of Edw. Jones. Dunno how. Anyone else?
    ..... Actual recent TRP experience sounds like @hank's. My regular, taxable investing acct. with TRP is rather new. They sent paper forms, per my request. Of course, I opened it there so my trading acct. would be in the same house as my IRAs. Convenience, consolidation. ... But of course, the questions on the forms are composed by geniuses who are trying to cover every base with the same form, so you have to read their mind--- which I admit I am unable to do. When I called for help, there was a ridiculously long wait. Then she answered. And she was clueless. I waited until after the week-end, and talked to a woman who knew what to do. She walked me through the stoopid form. And I connected my credit union account to it, too. But it is indeed way more trouble than it's worth, almost (?)

  • edited May 2021
    @Mark - Do you own any Fido branded funds directly? Or is everything through a brokerage account?

    Related - A “transfer-in-kind” to a brokerage account (staying in same TP fund) could afterwards be exchanged into any other fund available at Fidelity? Right?
  • As with Vanguard, the question may be moot. AFAIK, one can't open a fund position directly in either family.

    Sample prospectus boilerplate:
    If you do not currently have a Fidelity ® brokerage account or a Fidelity ® mutual fund account and would like to invest in a fund, you may need to complete an application. For more information about a Fidelity ® brokerage account or a Fidelity ® mutual fund account, please visit Fidelity's web site at www.fidelity.com, call 1-800-FIDELITY, or visit a Fidelity Investor Center (call 1-800-544-9797 for the center nearest you).
    But all one finds on Fidelity.com is this list of "accounts for investing":

    Brokerage Accounts, Cash Management Accounts, HSA Accounts, and 529 College Savings Plans.
    No mutual fund accounts.
    https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/investing

    Under Forms, if one checks "open an account" one sees a plethora of account forms, but the only two forms presented to open a vanilla, individual taxable account are a CMA (brokerage) application and a "Non-Retirement Brokerage Account for Individuals, Joint" application.
    https://www.fidelity.com/customer-service/forms-applications/all-forms

    Decades ago, Fidelity nudged all investors off of their mutual fund platform onto their brokerage platform. (Who remembers T-account numbers?) Vanguard is in the middle of that process now.
  • msf
    edited May 2021
    Transfers between fund families - yes, but with timing/amount restrictions.

    Transfers within a fund family can be done same day, as if you had invested directly with the fund family. But at Fidelity, you either have to wait a day after selling to buy a fund in a different family or call them to make the transfer (no added fee for this service).

    Even then, they won't let you transfer more than 90% of yesterday's closing value of the old position. They're confident that your old fund won't lose more than 10% of its value today. So they can comfortably put in a sell order for that 90% amount and a simultaneous buy order for the same dollar amount.

    Schwab does not appear to be as restrictive regarding same day transfer amounts.
  • edited May 2021
    “Decades ago, Fidelity nudged all investors off of their mutual fund platform onto their brokerage platform. (Who remembers T-account numbers?) Vanguard is in the middle of that process now.”

    Thanks. Wondered about that based on some past discussions here. And the Fido rep I spoke with today never mentioned that little detail.

    There is a difference. With a fund-to-fund exchange, it goes through at that day’s closing price. That’s handy if it’s a sector or very volatile fund and you’re watching the market. But in a brokerage, as I understand it, it takes 1 extra day to clear. One reason I never got into a brokerage. Admittedly, that kind of timing’s less important to me than years ago. (Still, OPGSX jumped over 5% yesterday.)

    The way around that, I guess, is to buy and sell ETFs …. if you want the latest market price … Right?

  • @Hank. FWIW - I can easily get to someone pretty quickly on the phone at Schwab - and they have periodic PROMO's for new money & securities transferred in. That can help ease the pain . You might just ask for it - but I can send you a referral also -( you probably can get it without the referral) https://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/nn/referred-prospect.html- The downside is no access to Vanguard Admiral shares - even the you meet the minimums.
  • msf said:



    Transfers within a fund family can be done same day, as if you had invested directly with the fund family.

    But at Fidelity, you either have to wait a day after selling to buy a fund in a different family or call them to make the transfer (no added fee for this service).

    Even then, they won't let you transfer more than 90% of yesterday's closing value of the old position. They're confident that your old fund won't lose more than 10% of its value today. So they can comfortably put in a sell order for that 90% amount and a simultaneous buy order for the same dollar amount.

    Schwab does not appear to be as restrictive regarding same day transfer amounts.


    Thanks. That’s great to hear.
  • + 1 Mark Hank, I've been with Fidelity since 1993 and highly recommend them. Transfers between brokerages are called In-Kind/ACAT transfers. For in-kind transfers, research Fidelity to make sure that they sell the TRP mutual funds that you are transferring in. I would also choose Fidelity over Schwab for two reasons: Fidelity funds are ntf with no minimum balance, and Fidelity's holding period to avoid early redemption fees is 60 days, compared to Schwab's 90 days. The ACAT transfers are easy to set up at Fidelity and you receive the incoming assets, whether mutual funds, etfs or cash within 5-7 business days.
  • edited May 2021
    @hank

    Note that in a brokerage account (at Fidelity), IF SWITCHING FROM ONE FUND TO ANOTHER IN SAME FAMILY, it happens on same day with that day’s closing price for both. Otherwise I keep some cash to sell one and buy similar of another, if in DIFFERENT families
  • edited May 2021
    … Fidelity's holding period to avoid early redemption fees is 60 days, compared to Schwab's 90 days.

    Thanks @carew388,

    That’s an unexpected issue for me. I shuffle a fair amount of $$ around at TRP (and Invesco). Not selling entire fund - just adding or subtracting. During periods like March & April 2020 you want to be moving from less aggressive into more aggressive funds. Usually abide by a self imposed 30 day rule - in addition to TRP’s own 30-day block.

    *Question: Is that early redemption fee only applied to the most recent shares bought? First in / first out perhaps? Makes a heck of a difference!

    I did find this …..

    “Fidelity charges a short-term trading fee each time you sell or exchange shares of a FundsNetwork NTF fund held less than 60 days. This fee does not apply to Fidelity funds, money market funds, FundsNetwork Transaction Fee funds, FundsNetwork load funds … “

    That’s good news. But still trying to figure out whether first in / first out applies in the NTF cases.



    Ahhh … Fidelity sounds fine (as does Schwab). Fido has a lot of good funds of its own - and there’s no short term trading fee. Used to play around with their sector funds when younger.

    I’ve dealt with TRP for 25 years. Their online system is great 99% of the time. Pretty slick. But the method of switching over to electronic delivery is a bit gimped up. My talk with them today reminds me of the old line: A man said to the Universe … “Sir, I exist …”
  • edited May 2021
    "I AM... I SAID."
  • ...to no one there...
  • I’ve been very pleased with Fidelity and their breadth of funds offered at No Load or No Fees. Had one service hiccup with them in many years re: linked accounts and trying to get in on an IPO I was eligible for. Otherwise, very happy with them. Family member in Vanguard and they like Vanguard but have complained to me that they wish they had access to the funds Fidelity offers. FWIW Good wishes to you.
  • @hank - the only Fidelity funds I own I own through my brokerage accounts, FSMEX in a taxable account and FTEC in my Roth account.

    As far as i know any fund that Fidelity carries can be transferred in kind to a similar brokerage account. If you own a TRP fund in a traditional IRA and Fidelity carries that fund then you can transfer in your shares to a traditional IRA brokerage account. I'm not positive but I don't believe that Fidelity has access to all of the TRP funds. For example, I believe that you are a good sized holder in PRWCX so it pays to check before transferring. I've owned 4-5 different TRP funds which I had no trouble transferring merely for bookkeeping ease. If you do the transfer in cash then of course you can buy whatever you want at Fidelity.
  • edited May 2021
    I don’t know how to thank everybody for the great response. Am humbled by how little i knew about Fidelity, Schwab & brokerages in general. This thread will be saved and referenced repeatedly. For now, I’m staying put with Price. Hopefully, the technical related issues will be resolved. Suspect I (and some of you) understand how to navigate and utilize their website better than many of the current phone reps - for reasons unclear to me.

    FWIW - Later in the evening Tuesday after reading all the responses, I researched practically every fund house on the attached list. Went right to their website. Late into the night. The changes in the mutual fund business since I joined TRP around 1995 are unbelievable. Only the strong survive. Many merged out of existence. With possibly a dozen exceptions (counting the big brokerages), all the houses on the Barron’s list appear to be front loaded, And few offer a diversified stable of funds for individuals. Several cater to institutions or very large investors. And none can compete with the 4 or 5 giants on fees. Their top rated house, Manning & Nappier is interesting. Not front loaded, but their 12B-1 fee is considered a “level load.” I actually like some of their allocation funds - but the added fee reduces attractiveness compared to TRP.

    Looks like increasingly the fund universe is dominated by a few mammoth houses. The big get bigger - which explains Fidelity’s current push to bring the “teeny-boppers” under its umbrella. I’ll pursue @msf’s use / suggestion of online banks which would negate the already limited need for checkwriting at a fund house. If the local bank on the corner you’ve been with for 15 years is unable to provide a medallion signature guarantee when you walk in the front door without your having to jump through hoops, what value is there to staying with them?


    Barrons List of 50 Best Mutual Fund Families in 2020 (From February, 2021)


    Manning & Napier Advisors $5,755 72.54 26 3 6 4 2
    2 54 Guggenheim Investments 40,034 70.56 20 16 15 1 11
    3 10 Vanguard Group 1,836,704 66.07 8 19 26 5 9
    4 9 Fidelity Management & Research 1,779,875 64.79 16 24 8 8 35
    5 47 Morgan Stanley Investment Management 77,902 62.95 1 10 18 51 52
    6 35 Transamerica Asset Management 48,738 62.46 10 8 9 48 23
    7 14 Lord Abbett 175,300 61.26 9 31 3 46 30
    8 51 Brinker Capital 14,011 60.52 2 9 7 53 48
    9 28 American Century Investment Mgmt 154,321 60.50 18 13 19 27 6
    10 4 Columbia Threadneedle Investments 179,658 59.90 13 32 14 15 42
    11 2 Virtus Investment Partners 48,912 59.41 28 36 1 39 4
    12 20 T. Rowe Price 761,480 59.38 32 17 4 24 33
    13 25 Saratoga Capital Management 1,251 59.23 50 4 24 2 53
    14 53 American Funds 2,290,068 58.93 43 12 35 3 18
    15 23 John Hancock 188,266 58.74 27 22 13 17 40
    16 27 First Trust Advisors 33,377 58.07 4 43 12 40 39
    17 45 Thrivent Mutual Funds 30,089 57.97 6 46 22 19 24
    18 13 BlackRock 340,679 57.69 24 15 21 18 47
    19 6 Nuveen 233,819 57.19 14 7 16 47 32
    20 52 AssetMark 3,952 56.21 3 52 31 13 36
    21 21 PGIM Investments 163,978 55.94 7 1 52 42 27
    22 8 Putnam Investment Management 82,302 55.78 11 26 20 41 26
    23 46 SIT Investment Associates 1,826 55.22 21 6 2 52 49
    24 18 J.P. Morgan Asset Management 454,621 55.16 12 18 29 34 29
    25 42 UBS Asset Management 12,563 55.00 23 37 10 43 10
    26 29 BNY Mellon Investment Management 63,649 54.41 5 34 38 32 25
    27 26 Amundi Pioneer Asset Management 46,209 53.07 34 2 36 38 28
    28 15 Wells Fargo Funds 88,736 52.93 19 28 44 9 44
    29 38 Pimco 415,290 51.95 17 51 25 29 5
    30 32 Ivy Investment Management 60,875 51.78 38 20 17 35 34
    31 31 Delaware Management 64,045 51.53 41 14 51 6 1
    32 30 Federated Investors 84,141 51.41 47 11 33 7 45
    33 3 DWS Group 30,427 50.36 42 21 23 23 37
    34 1 MFS Investment Management 370531 49.79 36 39 27 12 38
    35 11 Natixis Investment Managers 151,678 49.49 45 5 34 31 51
    36 49 Affiliated Managers Group 88,905 49.38 30 40 11 49 7
    37 12 Hartford Funds 114,072 48.78 25 27 46 25 12
    38 36 Neuberger Berman 38,096 48.40 35 48 32 10 43
    39 34 Goldman Sachs Asset Management 120,060 48.01 37 38 39 14 22
    40 7 State Street Bank & Trust 22,867 47.96 49 47 5 30 31
    41 22 Invesco 324,250 47.28 39 25 45 20 20
    42 5 Principal Global Investors 183,536 47.16 46 30 28 28 21
    43 39 MainStay Funds 66,624 46.44 29 44 37 37 3
    44 43 USAA Investments** 60,434 45.25 22 45 48 21 14
    45 48 Franklin Templeton Investments 472,488 44.74 33 35 49 26 17
    46 24 Northern Trust Investments 28,110 43.75 53 23 40 16 16
    47 37 SEI Group 97,141 42.75 48 50 42 11 13
    48 33 Eaton Vance 106,755 42.36 52 29 30 33 19
    49 17 Victory Capital Management** 36,030 42.32 44 33 50 22 8
    50 50 Russell Investments

    Barron’s February 19, 2021
  • baron list is bogus! out of fifty top brokerage houses, no listing at all for the very best: charles schwab!
    do you know how you become best doc in NJ. you buy the plaque each year. failure to purchase and you are delisted next year.
    us news and world reports lists the best colleges in america. one of the top five is REED in portland oregon. they are listed as 60th. why? simple, no payola. baron's list should not be considered for guidance.
  • edited May 2021
    Thanks @dsuttr -

    I won’t doubt your word. I only said that I investigated the 50 fund houses. If you or anyone else wants to provide a list of 50 more mutual fund houses you think worth investigating, I’d be glad to look at them too. Logging into 50 different fund houses and reading their prospectuses in one evening is a great way to test the longevity of the battery on my ipad.:)

    Regards
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