So I wanted a as painless a way to transfer my IRA account at TRP to a broker. Based on my experience last few months I have reached decision to manage some of my tax deferred money selling options instead of investing in mutual funds.
I searched on MFO, and landed on this thread which was helpful
https://mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/discussion/54913/acat-transfers-of-mutual-fundsHowever, it still left me little confused.
So I'm fine it takes longer time, but can I initiate ACAT transfer from my broker and accomplish everything online? I mean will TRP cut a check and send it to my broker - safer IMO than me asking them to send a check made payable to me FBO the broker and they messing it up.
Would really appreciate if someone who might have done the same share their experience. Right now my money in my TRP IRA is sitting in their money market fund.
Thanks in advance.
Comments
First, as others commented, all you need do is open the IRA account at the broker and fill out a form to have them initiate a transfer of the money from TRP.
We can really stop there, since that's all you need. The transfer will probably go via ACAT, since brokerages can initiate ACAT requests and mutual fund families (like TRP) can respond to those transfer requests.
The problem I had with Vanguard was that I was transferring cash in the other direction: from a brokerage into a mutual fund family (not into the Vanguard brokerage). So my money went by paper check. Even in this situation I never touched (or saw) that physical check. All done by magic.
Thank you so much!
And thank you MSF. I just didn't know TRP qualified as "broker". As long as its possible I'm good. I'm okay money going as cash to brokerage.
If anyone curious why I'm doing it, I'm convinced I can make this money grow faster selling puts like I've been doing last 5 months in my regular account and I don't have to worry about taxes.
Edit Should note that Price has on occasdion allowed me to transfer money in from other custodians online. But there have been occasions when, for whatever reason, it didn’t go through. So, generally I submit the work on paper.
VF -Someday when you have time maybe you could compose for us a “Selling Puts for Dummies“ guide. It’s something my feeble brain has yet to fully grasp. Possibly others would also like to understand the process better. While I’m not interested in doing such, some of my fund managers employ it - thus the interest in better comprehending.
Take care.
Here's an example.
Would you mind owning TSLA at $200 in the next 56 days. Your answer has to be YES.
Look at how much put for TSLA is selling expiring 11/20 here...
https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/TSLA/options?expiration=2020-11-20-m&moneyness=allRows
Answer = $2.25.
1 put controls 100 shares. Mortals need to cash secure their puts. 100 shares of TSLA at 200 cost $20K.
On 11/20 if price if TSLA is below $200 you will receive 100 shares of TSLA. THIS is your risk, BUT you already accepted it. If it is above $200 you earned $2.25 x 100 = $225. $225 on $20K. A recent of over 1% in 56 days. 6% annualized.
This works for me because I invest very conservatively. IT is not for every one.
- Linked chart (thanks to VF) is set to TSLA’s Friday close. / OK
- Scan down chart (left side) to TSLA futures @$200 / share and note the accompanying put price of $2.25 per share on specified date (11/20/20). / OK
- Sell 100 TSLA puts dated 11/20 for $2.25 each. You pocket $225. However, you are obligated to buy TSLA if the price is below $200 on 11/20.
- Secure your (potential) purchase of TSLA shares with $20,000.
- If TSLA is priced below $200 on 11/20, you are obligated to buy it at that price. Since you placed 100 puts, you will be required to buy 100 shares at $200.
- If TSLA is above $200 on 11/20, you’ve made $2.25 per put ($225 on 100 puts).
- The $225 you’ve pocketed is your “commission” (for lack of a better word) for helping facilitate the smooth functioning of the futures markets and for accepting what appears to be a small amount of risk.
Thanks VF - I’m beginning to understand. Glad it’s working for you.
- Selling puts for income represents the extent to which some of us are going to produce income or perceived “low risk” return in an era where cash yields virtually nothing and interest sensitive instruments (ie: bonds) look risky. Personally, I like to scour the charts looking for badly beaten up funds and place small short term “wagers” on some awaiting a bounce. Admittedly, that’s fraught with risk. Others are buying / trading lower credit instruments (the junkiest junk).
- The biggest risk with puts I’d think would be if TSLA (or other security) fell completely through the floor, dropping to near zero before the puts expired. In that case the holder would still be obligated to purchase the security for the predetermined price (in the example above $200). While that risk would appear very small, what might trigger such a worst-case outcome? (1) Heavy debt load & inability to raise more cash / bankruptcy, (2) Consumer law suits, (3) Previously unknown issues with the technology, (4) Regulatory issues, SEC violations / fines and or criminal activity.
I initiated the transfer online at Vanguard but couldn't finish it online since a medallion signature guarantee was required. I printed the paperwork, went to my credit union to obtain a medallion signature guarantee, and then sent the completed paperwork via USPS. The transaction was processed without any issues but the process was more cumbersome and time-consuming than I would have preferred.
Stay Safe , Derf
IIRC, the Medallion signature guarantee was a Fidelity requirement although the completed paperwork was sent to Vanguard. I don't know what criteria is used to determine whether or not a Medallion signature guarantee is needed.
Don’t sell 100 puts! Each ONE put equals 100 shares (100 shares in above example would be 100 x $200 price per share, or $20K). 100 puts would be secured by $2,000,000 (for 10K shares of $200 TSLA). You would make $225 per put, because you get $2.25 commission “per share”......and each option is worth 100 shares, or $225 total.
Works same way with calls. Each individual option is equal to 100 shares of the underlying company. Does that make sense?
Yep - A single put or call = 100 shares. 3 puts would equal 300 shares.
I hadn’t advanced yet to calls. Let’s see ... if you sell a put, than you must buy calls.
From Investopedia / “ When you buy a call, you pay the option premium in exchange for the right to buy shares at a fixed price (strike price) on or before a certain date (expiration date). Investors most often buy calls when they are bullish on a stock or other security because it offers leverage.”
The call allows you to purchase a stock at an inflated future price. You pay a fee in this case. But if the stock rises to a set price you have the right to buy it. Hard to see the advantage, except for small speculative companies (ie an early Amazon).
I’m by no means an expert! And VF got me thinking about using this for income again (I have done covered-calls for several years now). But I’ve been noodling around with selling some out of the money puts (thereby “going short” on the put) on triple-digit-priced stocks for 1-6 weeks out.....hoping to not have it exercised, and it “sidelines” the money required to purchase the underlying stock, at the exercise price, for the duration that the put option is held short.
Also, when buying calls (“going long” a call), most do this to take advantage of a price increase on the underlying stock (bullish stance) without having to put as much capital at risk (theoretically, only the cost of the call premium is put at risk). Sometimes, you can make more when a stock increases by holding the call option, depending upon maturity and how far out of the money the exercise price is. Many do not hold the option until expiration/exercise, but trade in the value of the option contract itself.
It seems very complicated when you explain it, but if you paper traded some options (maybe on the CBOE website or something?), it makes a little bit more sense. But I have very little idea when it comes to option spreads (multiple options on the same security)....
Sorry to hijack the thread!
Thank you for the insights into puts and calls.
So I tried to do ACATS from TRP to IBKR. TRP does not show up in the list of brokers!
Anyone did TRP to IBKR transfer?
PS - Yeah, please don't sell puts if you don't know WTF you are doing. Sell puts on stock you don't mine owning. IF you were going to put a limit order, sell put instead. Your cost basis will be lower if you get assigned, and if not, your whiskey is paid.
In theory, brokerages can pull assets via the ACAT system from a mutual fund account. Often though in-kind transfers from mutual fund accounts go outside of the ACAT system. Here's a page from Merrill Lynch that shows how different types of assets transfer between different types of institutions. It shows transfers from a mutual fund family as going outside of ACAT.
https://olui2.fs.ml.com/Publish/Content/application/pdf/GWMOL/Asset_Transfers_Factsheet_ARF4C5EB.pdf
Interactive Brokers does not seem to be set up to do accept non-cash, non-ACATS transfers. According to their IRA non-ACATS transfer form, "In-kind transfers into an IRA are only accepted via ACATS."
https://moam.info/instructions-for-ira-transfer-in-request-form_5987773e1723ddd069fb0180.html
If they cannot handle in-kind, non-ACATS transfers, and if you are transferring from a T. Rowe Price mutual fund account, it seems you have two choices:
1. Transfer the assets to a brokerage account at a third party; ideally one that does not charge for outgoing transfers of assets; then have Interactive Brokers pull from that account; or
2. Bite the bullet, liquidate the assets, and transfer as cash (apparently paper check or wire from T. Rowe Price).
There's also a matter of time out of the market between liquidating assets, receiving a check from the old institution, mailing it to the new brokerage, and purchasing new (or the same) securities. While this can work to one's advantage in a falling market, the odds are that the market will have gone up and you'll have missed that rise.
I've been helping someone transfer money from an employer plan with proprietary funds (non-transferable) to an outside brokerage. To minimize time out of the market, the assets are liquidated (no other way to get them out) and transferred in-house to an IRA brokerage account at the original institution. New, non-proprietary funds are purchased. Total: one day out of the market.
Those funds are then transferred, in kind, to the outside brokerage. Had the transfer been made directly to the outside brokerage, the cash would have gone by paper check taking several days to arrive. The outside brokerage could then take an additional seven days to release a hold on the cash deposit. Total: nearly two weeks out of the market.
As for two weeks out of the market , it's like a flip of the coin. Win some , lose some.
Stay Safe, Derf
The old custodian should have generated a 1099-R for the distribution. Vanguard should have processed the check as a contribution. You could have declared the distribution/contribution as a 60 day rollover on your tax return, recognizing that you were limited to one rollover per year.
Curiously, I've had an opposite problem. Year ago when I has a WellsTrade IRA, I tried to move cash in from an outside IRA. I walked in a check, payable to WellsTrade FBO my account, to a brokerage desk in a Wells Fargo bank. Wells Fargo Advisors refused to take my check - I was only a lowly discount brokerage customer, not a full service account holder. They advised to deposit it to my personal Wells Fargo checking account, then transfer it to my IRA.
That would have constituted a 60 day rollover, as I described. However, Wells Fargo Bank should not have allowed me to deposit the check; it wasn't payable to me. That's the whole point of FBO. So I didn't try to deposit it, not wishing to make a bad situation worse. I mailed the check to Wells Fargo (Wellstrade), and was out of the market a few more days.
My point about being out of the market is that while one wins some and loses some, it's not a coin flip (50/50). Even if the fund were equally likely to fall as to rise in a fortnight, one has to believe that the expectation value of fund performance over a couple of weeks would be positive since on average funds appreciate.
So I don't have a TRP "brokerage account". Honestly I did not know they had one else would have opened that one when I transferred IRA to them from an old 401k several years back.
My best bet is to see if they use someone else for ACATS clearing.
Next best bet is to file that IBKR form and see if they will wire money directly to IBKR account.
Last resort I have to do things old fashioned way and have them mail be an FBO check I can send IBKR. This is 2020. IF I have to do this, no one is ever going to Mars, ever.