Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
I would hope that should a National Emergency be declared, mfo members would be allowed to discuss it openly in the off topic section. It wouldn’t replace the regular financial chatter. But OMG - how could it be ignored? I can’t remember one in my lifetime. Maybe briefly after 9-11?
Tweety implying he'll militarily seize land in the southern states to build his wall? Funny, I thought some king tried that back in the 1700s and got his royal derriere' kicked, which resulted in ... the Constitution.
And yet when "the other guy" acted or tried to act via Executive Order in the face of ongoing partisan obstruction, the GOP went bloody nuts saying he was acting like an imperial president with no respect for Congress, the law, etc, etc.
Wondering when the GOP's vaunted 'states rights' folks are going to come out against this idea. Oh, right - it doesn't involve prohibiting abortion and/or supports *their* political goals, so ..... *shrug*.
For someone supposedly so concerned about the fate of the steel industry, you'd think he would have heard of Youngstown steel. Or at least his "handlers" would have. Yeah, sure.
"Truman rested his seizure order on legally vague national-emergency grounds, citing his inherent powers as president and as commander-in-chief of the armed forces."
The United States is in a state of emergency: 28 national ones and many more local. This might come as a surprise, but it isn’t new—this month marks the start of our 39th year in a continuous emergency state. What is an emergency, and how did we get here?
The United States is in a state of emergency: 28 national ones and many more local. This might come as a surprise, but it isn’t new—this month marks the start of our 39th year in a continuous emergency state. What is an emergency, and how did we get here?
@MFO Members: The threat of declaring a national emergency is nothing more than a negotiations ploy. The President's own staff admits that they would be on shaky legal grounds. However, as he usually does, one of our members who's entire life is spent around Trump bashing overreacts by comparing this to 9-11. Just plain childish.!!!! Regards, Ted
By Allen Clifton: "A quick civics lesson: Just before the government shutdown began, the Senate, led by Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (a Republican) overwhelmingly passed a bipartisan bill that would have kept the government open.
The then-Speaker of the House Paul Ryan (a Republican) refused to allow the House to even vote on that bill knowing it would likely pass with a veto-proof majority.
For those who might not know, if a president vetoes a bill, if two-thirds of both the House and the Senate vote against that president’s veto, they can override it, thus enacting that bill.
That’s called “checks and balances,” a key component our Founding Fathers put into our Constitution.
Fast forward a few weeks to when Democrats took power in the House of Representatives. They passed essentially the same exact veto-proof bill the Senate had overwhelmingly approved just a couple of weeks earlier that would reopen the government.
Only now, the same Sen. McConnell who let the passage of that bill before, won’t allow the Senate to vote on it — because he knows it would pass, thus forcing Trump to veto it, which would embarrass the party and expose their incompetence.
Keep in mind, this all centers around a lie Trump repeatedly told during his campaign (and even now) that Mexico was going to pay for his stupid wall, a wall he now wants the American taxpayer to fund.
Republicans controlled all of Congress and the White House for the past two years. If funding this wall was such a major issue, they would have done it — they didn’t. Repeatedly, his own party refused to pass spending bills that gave Trump money for that pointless wall.
This isn’t about border security, no matter how many time Trump tells that lie. This is about his ego and his pathetic attempt to distract people from the constantly-growing list of scandals, legal troubles, and embarrassing administration departures he’s been dealing with over the last several weeks.
If our government was functioning how our Founding Fathers meant for it to, our government would have never shut down.
First it was a Republican, Paul Ryan, refusing to let the House vote on the bill the Senate passed. Now it’s hypocritical Sen. Mitch McConnell, a Republican, doing the same thing with the recently-passed House bill.
Two frauds who refused to allow a bill to be voted on to keep the government open/reopen it, not because they opposed it, but because they were afraid it would pass and embarrass their party’s “president.”
This is not how democracy works. This is not how our government is supposed to work.
Donald Trump and the GOP are the only ones to blame for this political stunt."
By Allen Clifton: "A quick civics lesson: Just before the government shutdown began, the Senate, led by Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (a Republican) overwhelmingly passed a bipartisan bill that would have kept the government open.
The then-Speaker of the House Paul Ryan (a Republican) refused to allow the House to even vote on that bill knowing it would likely pass with a veto-proof majority.
For those who might not know, if a president vetoes a bill, if two-thirds of both the House and the Senate vote against that president’s veto, they can override it, thus enacting that bill.
That’s called “checks and balances,” a key component our Founding Fathers put into our Constitution.
Fast forward a few weeks to when Democrats took power in the House of Representatives. They passed essentially the same exact veto-proof bill the Senate had overwhelmingly approved just a couple of weeks earlier that would reopen the government.
Only now, the same Sen. McConnell who let the passage of that bill before, won’t allow the Senate to vote on it — because he knows it would pass, thus forcing Trump to veto it, which would embarrass the party and expose their incompetence.
Keep in mind, this all centers around a lie Trump repeatedly told during his campaign (and even now) that Mexico was going to pay for his stupid wall, a wall he now wants the American taxpayer to fund.
Republicans controlled all of Congress and the White House for the past two years. If funding this wall was such a major issue, they would have done it — they didn’t. Repeatedly, his own party refused to pass spending bills that gave Trump money for that pointless wall.
This isn’t about border security, no matter how many time Trump tells that lie. This is about his ego and his pathetic attempt to distract people from the constantly-growing list of scandals, legal troubles, and embarrassing administration departures he’s been dealing with over the last several weeks.
If our government was functioning how our Founding Fathers meant for it to, our government would have never shut down.
First it was a Republican, Paul Ryan, refusing to let the House vote on the bill the Senate passed. Now it’s hypocritical Sen. Mitch McConnell, a Republican, doing the same thing with the recently-passed House bill.
Two frauds who refused to allow a bill to be voted on to keep the government open/reopen it, not because they opposed it, but because they were afraid it would pass and embarrass their party’s “president.”
This is not how democracy works. This is not how our government is supposed to work.
Donald Trump and the GOP are the only ones to blame for this political stunt."
@johnN Stranger VP picks have happened! But, will she be 35 by 2020?
That dance looks like a national emergency to me. - If Spiro Agnew had only danced ... Let me say this about the dems ... They appear to have more fun. Most Repugs, I suspect, sit around counting their $$ while figuring how to weasel more from from the government and public at large.
Did somebody say “Tax returns”? -
PS - If you haven’t read @Mark’s historical sketch above, by Allen Clifton, you should. Where I’m deeply troubled here is that it’s The Congress which is supposed under the Constitution to control the purse strings and approve or deny expenditures. The Executive’s function is to implement and administer whatever monies Congress appropriates. So it’s a breech of that relationship to have the Executive try and go against the will of our elected representatives in spending money on the wall (which, of course, was supposed to be paid for by Mexico) under pretext of a “national energency.“ Apparently, the plan is to strip funds already appropriated to the military branches for defense and use it on the wall.
BTW: Just a semi-serious proposal:
There’s a severe labor shortage in the nation. Why not round up some of those immigrants and put them to work rebuilding our dilapidated highways? Pay them with the $$ that might have been spent on a wall. Make everyone happy, and the work would last for years if not decades. It’s shameful that wealthy CEO’s can sail their multi-million dollar yachts into Harbor Springs or Mackinaw City (virtually any Great Lakes port) in the summer and tie up for weeks on end at well maintained municipal docks - while a mile away the roads the locals depend on year round are in utter disrepair!
@MFO Members: The threat of declaring a national emergency is nothing more than a negotiations ploy. The President's own staff admits that they would be on shaky legal grounds.
@Ted. Thanks for your reasoned response. I wish to publicly acknowledge that you have demonstrated that you are better informed and smarter than the President.
- “ - Congress is bracing for President Donald Trump to target the country’s military construction budget to build his U.S.-Mexico border wall. That includes not only money aimed at bolstering European defenses overseas against Russian aggression but potentially Army Corps of Engineers funds that are typically used for hurricane protection, flood control and navigation on domestic waterways.”https://www.nola.com/national_politics/2019/02/corps-of-engineers-money-at-risk-to-fund-trumps-border-wall-lawmakers-say.html
This isn’t about border security, no matter how many time Trump tells that lie. This is about his ego and his pathetic attempt to distract people from the constantly-growing list of scandals, legal troubles, and embarrassing administration departures he’s been dealing with over the last several weeks.
And yet, every Democrat in a leadership role, saying they oppose the wall, previously stated they wanted one. Term limits are needed as well to remove these career Politicians, that is the National Emergency.
I believe the American way of life and its borders are worth defending. I also believe the first job of Government is to provide that protection. But, for the sake of argument, which country would you guys like to emulate?
So does everyone Brian, you're not the Lone Ranger here, but an unwanted phallic symbol to the dolt in charge isn't how to go about it. He can't play the emergency card because he was fuming about that months ago and did nothing. If it was an emergency why didn't the party in power of all branches of the government pass it when they had a chance. Do you not see how insane this whole business is?
MOST US citizens see NO need for it. Check the polls.
The communities and people who reside where he wants to build it see no need for it and don't want it. But because some idiotic fox news commentators and the grand numnuts Ann Coulter are in a meltdown it's a national emergency Give us all a break will ya!
And for the sake of argument I would like to see us emulate the United States as it was before this moron came to town. We were doing just fine.
Edited to add some documentation to my poll claims:
"Declaring a national emergency to build a border wall is out of step with history — and unpopular"
The solution is simple. Trump can pay for the wall with his own money. At the same time he will leave an everlasting legacy to rest of humanity. The only problem I see is what to name the wall.
For two more yours we're going to hear how unpopular this president is. Then, after he is easily re-elected in 2020, we'll have to listen to how low his approval rating is for another 4 years. Seems like no one likes him except for the voters.
Get your facts straight Brian. Obama did not declare an 'emergency' with respect to DACA. He declared an 'executive order' after waiting for Congress to move forward on legislative measures to address the situation.
Then in that case, Congress has already voted and approved a southern border barrier/fence (whatever you want to call it). The only problem is funding was never provided. So, from a US point of view, it has been voted on. If Trump decides to go the emergency route, he's only enacting what Congress has already voted on. See, we're done here. Next subject.
If the President can redirect funds already approved by our elected representatives in both houses of Congress from the intended purpose (ie: Homeland Security Department, domestic flood relief, equipment for our troops abroad) to a different project of his choosing, than What do you guys see as the proper role of Congress in the appropriations process? Is their role advice only? Ceremonial only? It certainly doesn’t appear to be advice and consent.
You and I know, of course, this isn’t the President’s money - nor Congress’s money. It’s your money and my money paid thru taxes which we entrust our elected representatives after due deliberation to allocate on our behalf for the common good. Are you saying that any President can, by declaring an emergency, divert that money from purposes Congress has authorized and spend it on something else?
Arguing over how Obama or Nixon or Truman operated does nothing to address the central question of today: Is having the authority on the part of the Executive branch to disregard the explicit will of Congress on spending something you’re comfortable with?
Comments
Tweety implying he'll militarily seize land in the southern states to build his wall? Funny, I thought some king tried that back in the 1700s and got his royal derriere' kicked, which resulted in ... the Constitution.
And yet when "the other guy" acted or tried to act via Executive Order in the face of ongoing partisan obstruction, the GOP went bloody nuts saying he was acting like an imperial president with no respect for Congress, the law, etc, etc.
Wondering when the GOP's vaunted 'states rights' folks are going to come out against this idea. Oh, right - it doesn't involve prohibiting abortion and/or supports *their* political goals, so ..... *shrug*.
"Truman rested his seizure order on legally vague national-emergency grounds, citing his inherent powers as president and as commander-in-chief of the armed forces."
Bzzzzt. Try again.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/emergencies-without-end-primer-federal-states-emergency
Amazing.
Regards,
Ted
"A quick civics lesson: Just before the government shutdown began, the Senate, led by Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (a Republican) overwhelmingly passed a bipartisan bill that would have kept the government open.
The then-Speaker of the House Paul Ryan (a Republican) refused to allow the House to even vote on that bill knowing it would likely pass with a veto-proof majority.
For those who might not know, if a president vetoes a bill, if two-thirds of both the House and the Senate vote against that president’s veto, they can override it, thus enacting that bill.
That’s called “checks and balances,” a key component our Founding Fathers put into our Constitution.
Fast forward a few weeks to when Democrats took power in the House of Representatives. They passed essentially the same exact veto-proof bill the Senate had overwhelmingly approved just a couple of weeks earlier that would reopen the government.
Only now, the same Sen. McConnell who let the passage of that bill before, won’t allow the Senate to vote on it — because he knows it would pass, thus forcing Trump to veto it, which would embarrass the party and expose their incompetence.
Keep in mind, this all centers around a lie Trump repeatedly told during his campaign (and even now) that Mexico was going to pay for his stupid wall, a wall he now wants the American taxpayer to fund.
Republicans controlled all of Congress and the White House for the past two years. If funding this wall was such a major issue, they would have done it — they didn’t. Repeatedly, his own party refused to pass spending bills that gave Trump money for that pointless wall.
This isn’t about border security, no matter how many time Trump tells that lie. This is about his ego and his pathetic attempt to distract people from the constantly-growing list of scandals, legal troubles, and embarrassing administration departures he’s been dealing with over the last several weeks.
If our government was functioning how our Founding Fathers meant for it to, our government would have never shut down.
First it was a Republican, Paul Ryan, refusing to let the House vote on the bill the Senate passed. Now it’s hypocritical Sen. Mitch McConnell, a Republican, doing the same thing with the recently-passed House bill.
Two frauds who refused to allow a bill to be voted on to keep the government open/reopen it, not because they opposed it, but because they were afraid it would pass and embarrass their party’s “president.”
This is not how democracy works. This is not how our government is supposed to work.
Donald Trump and the GOP are the only ones to blame for this political stunt."
??? Who's being childish?
Mark -- well said!!
think she would be a GREAT VP choice 2020 - it would be a massacre
Let me say this about the dems ... They appear to have more fun. Most Repugs, I suspect, sit around counting their $$ while figuring how to weasel more from from the government and public at large.
Did somebody say “Tax returns”?
-
PS - If you haven’t read @Mark’s historical sketch above, by Allen Clifton, you should. Where I’m deeply troubled here is that it’s The Congress which is supposed under the Constitution to control the purse strings and approve or deny expenditures. The Executive’s function is to implement and administer whatever monies Congress appropriates. So it’s a breech of that relationship to have the Executive try and go against the will of our elected representatives in spending money on the wall (which, of course, was supposed to be paid for by Mexico) under pretext of a “national energency.“ Apparently, the plan is to strip funds already appropriated to the military branches for defense and use it on the wall.
BTW: Just a semi-serious proposal:
There’s a severe labor shortage in the nation. Why not round up some of those immigrants and put them to work rebuilding our dilapidated highways? Pay them with the $$ that might have been spent on a wall. Make everyone happy, and the work would last for years if not decades. It’s shameful that wealthy CEO’s can sail their multi-million dollar yachts into Harbor Springs or Mackinaw City (virtually any Great Lakes port) in the summer and tie up for weeks on end at well maintained municipal docks - while a mile away the roads the locals depend on year round are in utter disrepair!
Trump to declare National Emergency:
- From The Chicago Tribune (thought Ted would appreciate this one) https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-national-emergency-20190214-story.html
- From NBC: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/dangerous-abuse-lawless-bipartisan-attack-trump-national-emergency-declaration-n971826
- From USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/02/14/national-emergency-democrats-republicans-warn-trump-against-declaration/2874582002/
Where will the Billions come from?
- “ - Congress is bracing for President Donald Trump to target the country’s military construction budget to build his U.S.-Mexico border wall. That includes not only money aimed at bolstering European defenses overseas against Russian aggression but potentially Army Corps of Engineers funds that are typically used for hurricane protection, flood control and navigation on domestic waterways.” https://www.nola.com/national_politics/2019/02/corps-of-engineers-money-at-risk-to-fund-trumps-border-wall-lawmakers-say.html
Sleight of Hand?
Here’s the other story I think the emergency declaration is intended to distract attention from (“a real Balasco“). http://time.com/5529240/judge-manafort-lied-russia-probe/
MOST US citizens see NO need for it. Check the polls.
The communities and people who reside where he wants to build it see no need for it and don't want it. But because some idiotic fox news commentators and the grand numnuts Ann Coulter are in a meltdown it's a national emergency Give us all a break will ya!
And for the sake of argument I would like to see us emulate the United States as it was before this moron came to town. We were doing just fine.
Edited to add some documentation to my poll claims:
"Declaring a national emergency to build a border wall is out of step with history — and unpopular"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/14/declaring-national-emergency-build-border-wall-is-out-step-with-history-unpopular/?utm_term=.6cf6526bee7d&wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1
"Opinions: We have a national emergency, all right. Its name is Donald Trump."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-have-a-national-emergency-all-right-its-name-is-donald-trump/2019/02/14/dffc5298-30a9-11e9-8ad3-9a5b113ecd3c_story.html?utm_term=.2ce4eb39fa64&wpisrc=nl_headlines&wpmm=1
If the President can redirect funds already approved by our elected representatives in both houses of Congress from the intended purpose (ie: Homeland Security Department, domestic flood relief, equipment for our troops abroad) to a different project of his choosing, than What do you guys see as the proper role of Congress in the appropriations process? Is their role advice only? Ceremonial only? It certainly doesn’t appear to be advice and consent.
You and I know, of course, this isn’t the President’s money - nor Congress’s money. It’s your money and my money paid thru taxes which we entrust our elected representatives after due deliberation to allocate on our behalf for the common good. Are you saying that any President can, by declaring an emergency, divert that money from purposes Congress has authorized and spend it on something else?
Arguing over how Obama or Nixon or Truman operated does nothing to address the central question of today:
Is having the authority on the part of the Executive branch to disregard the explicit will of Congress on spending something you’re comfortable with?
Thanks for contributing to the discussion.