Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
@hank Thank you for posting your comments, although you shouldn't have had to. The same poster you addressed--JohnN--I would observe is now happily posting remarks in the Harvard/Racism lawsuit thread without any comments regarding how that thread is inappropriate for a mutual fund board.
Re: Empathy, the label on the original post in this thread: Because I stay on top of news from Israel and Palestine, it occurs to me to mention the utter lack of any sort of protest from anywhere about the ongoing treatment of minor children by the IDF.
Crash is absolutely right. This thread started out talking about the empathy, or lack thereof, of this administration. So here's the latest news about this administration's empathy regarding Israeli actions, and Israel's response:
U.S. withdraws from U.N. Human Rights Council The announcement comes a day after the U.N.'s top human rights official criticized the Trump administration's "zero tolerance" immigration policy
[Netanyahu tweet] "Israel thanks President Trump, Secretary Pompeo and Ambassador Haley for their courageous decision against the hypocrisy and the lies of the so-called UN Human Rights Council."
The United States withdrew on Tuesday from the world’s most important human rights body in protest of its frequent criticism of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. ... It was the first time a member has voluntarily left the United Nations Human Rights Council. The United States now joins Iran, North Korea and Eritrea as the only countries that refuse to participate in the council’s meetings and deliberations.
(organizations that aid refugees and and asylum seekers; that address violations committed by Israeli authorities in Israel, the occupied territories, or elsewhere; that collect soldiers’ testimonies in order to raise public awareness about the consequences of the occupation; etc.)
I'd mentioned the legal actions that the ACLU is taking on behalf of the border children. Don't like the ACLU? Here's a slew of other organizations. Don't like using a DCC-affiliated list? Find your own and post it. https://secure.actblue.com/donate/kidsattheborder
These parents hoped to raise $1,500 for separated migrant families. They raised $12 million and counting:
"It began with the smallest possible quantity of optimism, which turns out to be $1,500.
Charlotte and Dave Willner had seen the pictures of migrant children crying at the border. One in particular reminded them of their own 2-year-old daughter.
The San Francisco area couple had heard — as much of the United States had by now — that President Trump’s administration has begun jailing migrant parents caught crossing the border and sending their children to shelters. The president’s chief of staff has called the new “zero-tolerance” policy a deterrent against illegal immigration.
But the Willners had also learned that a lump of cash might thwart the government’s plans. Just like arrested Americans, detained migrant parents can often post bond and simply walk out of jail. They can then, presumably, collect their children from government custody and live in the United States until their court hearings, which are often months away.
Or they could, if they had the money. Bonds for detained migrants typically range from hundreds to many thousands of dollars — amounts that might as well be in the billions for families that arrive here with next to nothing, and have whatever they brought with them confiscated by Border Patrol.
So the Willners created a Facebook fundraiser over the weekend to raise $1,500 — enough to free a single migrant parent with a relatively low bond.
“It was the closest thing we could do to hugging that kid,” Dave Willner told the Mercury News.
Five days later, the Willners have raised more than $12 million and climbing — overflowing all previous optimism."
Personal note: Because of the nature of this story I've copied more than would be normally acceptable directly from this Washington Post article. Apologies to the Post, your forbearance is appreciated.
Thanks @msf & others for all the suggested links to humanitarian groups. Just sent a donation to one of the groups working on behalf of the immigrant children. Related note - Since the financial relevancy of this thread has been questioned, I’d like to share the following story:
The "president" 's new decision is not legal, really, lots of writing about this, accomplishes little, and the future for these families is worse than unclear. I won't post NYT and WaPo and Guardian and the other dozen links. He caved, but his only concern was looking strong, as usual. All repulsive, and not only morally.
I suppose I had better watching saying smarties, lest deplorables I mean libtard-haters go plectic. So here, let someone else say it:
(Charles Taylor BostonGlobe) … we put so much faith in democratic institutions that we are blind to their erosion. That faith has powered much of the media, which have been hellbent on scouring every coffee shop from Dogpatch to Greater Hooterville in order to provide a voice to people who want to tell us how they are looked down on by elites and no longer recognize their own country. The latter, as one comic recently said, usually means that they were recently sold a six-pack by a guy wearing a turban. The former claim, about ordinary people deprived of power, persists even though Trump supporters managed to elect a president who lost the popular vote by millions because of an antiquated system that gives more weight to votes in rural ... areas than from urban areas. The claim of elitism is one that liberals have been particularly susceptible to. They have proved ever ready to flagellate themselves with the belief that they have somehow “looked down on” (i.e., supported different values than) the simple folk. But even if liberals and city dwellers and elites had looked down on the minions of Trumpland, the question that no one seems willing to ask is, Why shouldn’t they be looked down on?
Or as Wonkette put it:
Media Loathed Hillary So Much They Forgot She Was Running Against Donald Trump
I suppose I had better watching saying smarties, lest deplorables I mean libtard-haters go plectic. So here, let someone else say it:
(Charles Taylor BostonGlobe) … we put so much faith in democratic institutions that we are blind to their erosion. That faith has powered much of the media, which have been hellbent on scouring every coffee shop from Dogpatch to Greater Hooterville in order to provide a voice to people who want to tell us how they are looked down on by elites and no longer recognize their own country. The latter, as one comic recently said, usually means that they were recently sold a six-pack by a guy wearing a turban. The former claim, about ordinary people deprived of power, persists even though Trump supporters managed to elect a president who lost the popular vote by millions because of an antiquated system that gives more weight to votes in rural ... areas than from urban areas. The claim of elitism is one that liberals have been particularly susceptible to. They have proved ever ready to flagellate themselves with the belief that they have somehow “looked down on” (i.e., supported different values than) the simple folk. But even if liberals and city dwellers and elites had looked down on the minions of Trumpland, the question that no one seems willing to ask is, Why shouldn’t they be looked down on?
Or as Wonkette put it:
Media Loathed Hillary So Much They Forgot She Was Running Against Donald Trump
Yes he's a musician but he's been a voice for decency for as long as I can remember. Also, the last time I checked he's still an American with a right to an opinion which is: "There’s the beautiful quote by Dr. King that says the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice. Now, there have been many, many recent days when you could certainly have an argument over that. But I’ve lived long enough to see that in action and to put some faith in it. But I’ve also lived long enough to know that arc doesn’t bend on its own. It needs all of us leaning on it, nudging it in the right direction, day after day. You’ve gotta keep, keep leaning. I think it’s important to believe in those words, and to carry yourself, and to act accordingly."
From an article in the New Yorker by David Remnick. "Bruce Springsteen Speaks Out About the “Disgracefully Inhumane and Un-American” Scenes at the Border"
Yes, I saw that also. And I agree... the chances of a reasonable recovery to a situation where give/take and compromise is possible don't look good. Not at all.
It is a reprehensible crime against humanity to separate children from their parents at the border. Period. And Zero Tolerance? Since when has it become a crime to knock on America's door and ask for political asylum? . . . or to want to come here and live. We can say No, but a crime to even ask?!? Oh, and having the audacity to Ask means you lose your kids. Cute. And don't you dare tell me they are just enforcing the law that passed a bipartisan vote in the congress. The number of laws that have been on the books over the years depriving some peoples of their rights is legion.
However, let's cut to the chase regarding immigration. The entire issue is all bull sh*t wrapped in a lie.
There is both the Supply side and Demand side. The Supply side are folks wanting to come to this country for any number of reasons. They want to work and live here and perhaps someday become a citizen. Ah, but how about the Demand side. All the farmers and processors hiring cheap labor off the books. There was a dairy farmer from Wisconsin last year on TV admitting the if he had to pay minimum wage it would drive him out of business at the current prices. That's probably his justification - that he's feeding people and wants to keep the prices down. feh.
Let anyone in who wants to come BUT give them a Green Card and if they get caught without one, they go to jail for 3 years and then get returned to their country of origin. In this way, they pay taxes, social security, and are able to be kept track of by the government.
Ah, but on the Demand side, the employers hiring the illegal workers - employing a person without a Green Card - gets fined $10,000 per head.
Get all employment above board and On the Books.
And, BTW, keep citizen requirements as hard if not harder then they are currently.
Geez, folks, it's no different than any other black market. You cannot stop the supply of illegal recreational drugs as long as there is a demand for them. Same/same with labor.
@rono- I'm sorry, but your comments must be disallowed due to their excessive content of truth and common sense. You may choose to appeal, but if you do, you will be jailed until we damn well feel like letting you out.
I’ll add that a recent WSJ article warned that SS and other “entitlements” (as the right wing has branded them) are greatly endangered because we seniors are comprising a growing % of the population. Yet, it also pointed out that slowing immigration (the legal type) is one trend that is contributing to the problem. It seems that immigrants tend to be a lot younger on average than the general population, able to work and contribute towards the social programs (which are threatened) through payroll taxes. So, immigration can be good for America in many ways.
Than again - caging young kids / shipping them around the country to detention facilities hardly sounds like a country I’d want to visit - let alone immigrate to. I think what the right is doing here is cutting off their nose to spite their face.
"I think what the right is doing here is cutting off their nose to spite their face"
@hank- Does seem that way, yes? As it is now, ICE is closing down some fairly good-sized businesses by arresting and deporting most of their labor. But wait! Aren't there lots of US citizens just waiting to grab those jobs? Umm, no. Well, what the hell... deport them anyway and we'll sort all of this out some other time. Who knew immigration could be so complicated?
I’ll add that a recent WSJ article warned that SS and other “entitlements” (as the right wing has branded them) are greatly endangered because we seniors are comprising a growing % of the population. Yet, it also pointed out that slowing immigration (the legal type) is one trend that is contributing to the problem. It seems that immigrants tend to be a lot younger on average than the general population, able to work and contribute towards the social programs through payroll taxes which are threatened. So, immigration can be good for America in many ways.
Than again - caging young kids / shipping them around the country to detention facilities hardly sounds like a country I’d want to visit - let alone immigrate to. I think what the right is doing here is cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Not nearly fast enough. They right has been sticking their nose in my business since forever. Who I want to marry, how I want to raise a family,
Let anyone in who wants to come BUT give them a Green Card and if they get caught without one, they go to jail for 3 years and then get returned to their country of origin. In this way, they pay taxes, social security, and are able to be kept track of by the government.
They're already paying taxes, including social security. Put them on the books, and the next thing you know, they'll be collecting SS, depriving you and me of some of their hard earned cash.
The IRS estimates that undocumented immigrants pay over $9 billion in withheld payroll taxes annually. Undocumented immigrants also help make the Social Security system more solvent, as they pay into the system but are ineligible to collect benefits upon retiring. In 2010, $12 billion more was collected from Social Security payroll taxes of undocumented workers than were paid out in benefits.
Surely there is a longterm etf play, or some sort of futures contract investment, involving immigrant system pay-in but no withdrawal at the end of lifetime employment.
Comments
Regards-
OJ
Well said. Thank you.
Trump and Kirstjen Nielsen’s embarrassing surrender on separating families
"It's at once an admission that the politics of the issue had gotten out of hand and that the administration's arguments were completely dishonest."
Analysis by The Washington Post
AP, via NBC News: NYTimes: MFO is an investing site, or more generally a site about money, making it and to some extent spending it. So spend some. Here's what the New Israel Fund supports:
https://www.nif.org/what-we-do/grantmaking/grantees/#human-rights-democracy-grantees
(organizations that aid refugees and and asylum seekers; that address violations committed by Israeli authorities in Israel, the occupied territories, or elsewhere; that collect soldiers’ testimonies in order to raise public awareness about the consequences of the occupation; etc.)
I'd mentioned the legal actions that the ACLU is taking on behalf of the border children. Don't like the ACLU? Here's a slew of other organizations. Don't like using a DCC-affiliated list? Find your own and post it.
https://secure.actblue.com/donate/kidsattheborder
"It began with the smallest possible quantity of optimism, which turns out to be $1,500.
Charlotte and Dave Willner had seen the pictures of migrant children crying at the border. One in particular reminded them of their own 2-year-old daughter.
The San Francisco area couple had heard — as much of the United States had by now — that President Trump’s administration has begun jailing migrant parents caught crossing the border and sending their children to shelters. The president’s chief of staff has called the new “zero-tolerance” policy a deterrent against illegal immigration.
But the Willners had also learned that a lump of cash might thwart the government’s plans. Just like arrested Americans, detained migrant parents can often post bond and simply walk out of jail. They can then, presumably, collect their children from government custody and live in the United States until their court hearings, which are often months away.
Or they could, if they had the money. Bonds for detained migrants typically range from hundreds to many thousands of dollars — amounts that might as well be in the billions for families that arrive here with next to nothing, and have whatever they brought with them confiscated by Border Patrol.
So the Willners created a Facebook fundraiser over the weekend to raise $1,500 — enough to free a single migrant parent with a relatively low bond.
“It was the closest thing we could do to hugging that kid,” Dave Willner told the Mercury News.
Five days later, the Willners have raised more than $12 million and climbing — overflowing all previous optimism."
Personal note: Because of the nature of this story I've copied more than would be normally acceptable directly from this Washington Post article. Apologies to the Post, your forbearance is appreciated.
http://new.israelpalestinemissionnetwork.org/
https://www.pcusastore.com/Products/2646618001/why-palestine-matters-the-struggle-to-end-colonialism.aspx
http://epfnational.org/pin/episcopal-church-policy-on-israelpalestine/
https://www.yahoo.com/news/homeland-security-drafts-plan-end-family-separation-151501530.html
United American Southwest and Frontier Refuse to Transport Immigrant Children Separated From Families.
http://abc7.com/business/airlines-band-together-and-refuse-to-transport-separated-migrant-kids/3627394/
This is going to cost the airlines some revenue. May also jeopardize any future government contracts or in other ways incur the wrath of Trump.
https://mashable.com/2018/06/18/child-separation-immigration-charities-donate/#JZOvRHM1oqqa
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/trump-traded-family-separation-for-illegal-indefinite-detention-and-fixed-nothing.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/family-separation-debate-shows-trump-worries-most-about-showing-strength-not-heart/2018/06/20/330ee6be-74b0-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-has-been-forced-into-retreat-by-babies-thats-fitting/2018/06/20/52efb398-73d7-11e8-805c-4b67019fcfe4_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/humanity-won-this-time-but-theres-a-hard-road-ahead/2018/06/20/1bf55c74-74c9-11e8-b4b7-308400242c2e_story.html
this is lame in spots, but nastier-than-thou is a nice turn:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/trump-language-immigration.html
I suppose I had better watching saying smarties, lest deplorables I mean libtard-haters go plectic. So here, let someone else say it:
(Charles Taylor BostonGlobe)
… we put so much faith in democratic institutions that we are blind to their erosion. That faith has powered much of the media, which have been hellbent on scouring every coffee shop from Dogpatch to Greater Hooterville in order to provide a voice to people who want to tell us how they are looked down on by elites and no longer recognize their own country. The latter, as one comic recently said, usually means that they were recently sold a six-pack by a guy wearing a turban. The former claim, about ordinary people deprived of power, persists even though Trump supporters managed to elect a president who lost the popular vote by millions because of an antiquated system that gives more weight to votes in rural ... areas than from urban areas.
The claim of elitism is one that liberals have been particularly susceptible to. They have proved ever ready to flagellate themselves with the belief that they have somehow “looked down on” (i.e., supported different values than) the simple folk. But even if liberals and city dwellers and elites had looked down on the minions of Trumpland, the question that no one seems willing to ask is, Why shouldn’t they be looked down on?
Or as Wonkette put it:
Media Loathed Hillary So Much They Forgot She Was Running Against Donald Trump
From an article in the New Yorker by David Remnick. "Bruce Springsteen Speaks Out About the “Disgracefully Inhumane and Un-American” Scenes at the Border"
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/bruce-springsteen-speaks-out-about-the-disgracefully-inhumane-and-un-american-scenes-at-the-border
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/06/sinclair-broadcasting-group-local-news-stations-attack-critics-of-family-separation-boris-epshteyn.html
It is a reprehensible crime against humanity to separate children from their parents at the border. Period. And Zero Tolerance? Since when has it become a crime to knock on America's door and ask for political asylum? . . . or to want to come here and live. We can say No, but a crime to even ask?!? Oh, and having the audacity to Ask means you lose your kids. Cute. And don't you dare tell me they are just enforcing the law that passed a bipartisan vote in the congress. The number of laws that have been on the books over the years depriving some peoples of their rights is legion.
However, let's cut to the chase regarding immigration. The entire issue is all bull sh*t wrapped in a lie.
There is both the Supply side and Demand side. The Supply side are folks wanting to come to this country for any number of reasons. They want to work and live here and perhaps someday become a citizen. Ah, but how about the Demand side. All the farmers and processors hiring cheap labor off the books. There was a dairy farmer from Wisconsin last year on TV admitting the if he had to pay minimum wage it would drive him out of business at the current prices. That's probably his justification - that he's feeding people and wants to keep the prices down. feh.
Let anyone in who wants to come BUT give them a Green Card and if they get caught without one, they go to jail for 3 years and then get returned to their country of origin. In this way, they pay taxes, social security, and are able to be kept track of by the government.
Ah, but on the Demand side, the employers hiring the illegal workers - employing a person without a Green Card - gets fined $10,000 per head.
Get all employment above board and On the Books.
And, BTW, keep citizen requirements as hard if not harder then they are currently.
Geez, folks, it's no different than any other black market. You cannot stop the supply of illegal recreational drugs as long as there is a demand for them. Same/same with labor.
and so it goes,
peace,
rono
Sincerely
Jeff Sessions
For the Administration
I’ll add that a recent WSJ article warned that SS and other “entitlements” (as the right wing has branded them) are greatly endangered because we seniors are comprising a growing % of the population. Yet, it also pointed out that slowing immigration (the legal type) is one trend that is contributing to the problem. It seems that immigrants tend to be a lot younger on average than the general population, able to work and contribute towards the social programs (which are threatened) through payroll taxes. So, immigration can be good for America in many ways.
Than again - caging young kids / shipping them around the country to detention facilities hardly sounds like a country I’d want to visit - let alone immigrate to. I think what the right is doing here is cutting off their nose to spite their face.
since a long time; depends on the decade
don't know what happened when we turned back refugee ships but some swam to shore instead --- I bet they were arrested and charged.
@hank- Does seem that way, yes? As it is now, ICE is closing down some fairly good-sized businesses by arresting and deporting most of their labor. But wait! Aren't there lots of US citizens just waiting to grab those jobs? Umm, no. Well, what the hell... deport them anyway and we'll sort all of this out some other time. Who knew immigration could be so complicated?