Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome becomes bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
Well said. Afraid politics aint changed much from Ciceros time neither, All this squirming ...err posturing & public pronouncement on both sides makes me think what a Vegas Kingpin said on 60 minutes recently: "If you have to look around the room to see who the mark is ... you're the mark." All this leakin about means testing SS / Medicare sounds like another blow to the middle class comin down the pipe.
Ya.........but, all is well; as the NFL has attained a contract settlement. Meanwhile, those in the top row of the colosseum in Rome notice small clusters of smoke rising into the blue skies, knowing there must be fires below the smoke; but alas, the fans are pleased to have the gladiators back onto the field of sport. Even the gladiators are somewhat happy, as their new contract allows them to use more fighting tools and can now call for a "time out" period, to help control their bleeding. I assess this as what Pink Floyd noted in one song lyric...."comfortably numb" ! NOTE: I am apparently somewhat unpatriotic; as I do not watch or follow professional sports, with the exception of a periodic NASCAR auto race; which is triggered from a deep mental position of pleasure from my younger days on this third rock from the sun. Take care, Catch
Quotation Rule #3: Quotes that a politically conservative quoter attributes to classical figures like Cicero, and that criticize modern, allegedly liberal trends are almost always phony.
I am a say'in I don't quite feel the 100% fraud thing go'in here, based upon the author's statement above, which sure does not read as proof.
I recall from a chat with OJ a few years back that during one of his early incarnations, that he was also a speech writer for Cicero...:)
Fund Kid, if you can find this through the library system; obtain and view the 13 part BBC series from 1976, titled; I Claudius. You may find some familair situations to today's "modern" world.
Reply to @Anonymous: Nuts- should have checked that myself, didn't because it was relatively "non-partisan". Anyway, he should have said it even if he didn't!
Well, maybe Cicero didn't say this on the floor of the Roman Senate, assuming somebody recorded all that stuff, but he still might have said it somewhere else seein how the fella had a real gift for gab. How the #^¥!+* do these experts know? Fraudulent? Hell, some think Pearl Harbor and the moon landing were fraudulent. Always doubters.
I say the quote right on in the deeper sense OJ intended. Politics and human nature aint changed over all them years. Fraud? Now, politics & fraud aint exactly distant cousins. Whats more fraudulent than spooking the economy into possible talespin with all the hurt that would cause real folk than this concocted debt ceiling crisis? Remember "Et tu Brutus?"
Reply to @hank: Hank, if you examine the links I've provided the quote first appeared in a novel. If Cicero had said it, it would have been documented much earlier and would at least exist in Latin somewhere.
Also, it seems like there are several versions of it. One version has foreign aid instead of public assistance. It is hard to believe Romans had foreign aid. They would rather pillage and tax.
I am not against the content of this message. At some point we should move towards balanced budgets. But trying to balance it and make deep cuts right now, is basically making the mistake of 1937 where the focus moved too quickly and created another recession.
Except for tea party backed representatives in the congress, GOP and most of their supports in business community actually realize this, but they seem to put re-election as a priority over country. By deep cuts, they would like to create an economic downfall before elections so voters would blame Obama and then when Obama is voted out of office as a result of renewed economic crisis, they would have to do no such painful action under their watch. By increasing the dept ceiling in smaller increments, they want to prolong this crisis as if this country has no other issue to tend to. I am sorry but they are playing with fire and this behavior is rather irresponsible just like it was irresponsible to say "Deficits did not matter" by VP Cheney.
Reply to @Investor: Calm down now, for once I wasn't really trying to start a fistfight... I think that the "quote" is pretty true no matter WHO happens to be in office at the moment.
I believe that most reasonably open minded folks agree that there is PLENTY of blame all around here. We Democrats sometimes don't know when to stop spending, and that's the truth. On the other hand, the present rock/hard place was pretty well engineered by the Republicans during the previous administration. Wars with "deferred" payment & simultaneous tax breaks for those who don't need them- give me a break!
Now we've got self-interested and potentially destructive minorities on both sides that seem to have lost their minds, if they ever had any. And between them they might just take all of us along with them as they head over the cliff. John Boehner is really screwed... I believe that he personally could make a reasonable compromise with no problem, but he is tied hand and foot by the "Tea Party" nutcakes.
Frankly, I find the whole thing a bit scary. Remember that the Nazi party was a very distinct minority also, but they brought down an entire country. (Not saying that the Tea Partiers are Nazi- merely pointing out that in a democracy, under certain circumstances, disaster may be caused by a well-organized minority group.)
No fist fighting and I was actually expecting these developments as Congress has become more and more polarized. There is a group of freshmen in congress that is not open to any compromise. Their way or no way. This is no way to govern. It is irresponsible but veteran leadership is taken hostage by these groups.
Tee party is fairly well organized by some fringe and delusional groups and somehow convinced financially illiterate voters to back them.
The ordinary backers are not aware that they are about to self inflict themselves in the process of cutting deficit abruptly (big front loaded cuts) instead of indexing it to something like GDP growth. Otherwise, front loaded deep cuts now can snowball and in a connected and slow growing world, increase interest rates worldwide, make borrowing for businesses more expensive, lead already troubled housing sector into even more doo-doo as there will be less buyers. In the process they can destroy US dollar credibility completely (if we have not already done partially by prolonging this process)
In effect Tea party proposals can cause deflation to depression and cascade of failed businesses and even higher unemployment. This happened in 1937. It can happen again.
BTW, tea party organizers, have no problem cutting social security, medicare, medicaid which many tea party voters are actually benefiting but they cannot get themselves to get higher earners to share the burden a bit more.
If I did not believe it would be irreversibly damaging, I almost wanted that these people got what they wished for and see if they liked the outcome of their decision.
Comments
All this squirming ...err posturing & public pronouncement on both sides makes me think what a Vegas Kingpin said on 60 minutes recently: "If you have to look around the room to see who the mark is ... you're the mark." All this leakin about means testing SS / Medicare sounds like another blow to the middle class comin down the pipe.
Ya.........but, all is well; as the NFL has attained a contract settlement. Meanwhile, those in the top row of the colosseum in Rome notice small clusters of smoke rising into the blue skies, knowing there must be fires below the smoke; but alas, the fans are pleased to have the gladiators back onto the field of sport. Even the gladiators are somewhat happy, as their new contract allows them to use more fighting tools and can now call for a "time out" period, to help control their bleeding.
I assess this as what Pink Floyd noted in one song lyric...."comfortably numb" !
NOTE: I am apparently somewhat unpatriotic; as I do not watch or follow professional sports, with the exception of a periodic NASCAR auto race; which is triggered from a deep mental position of pleasure from my younger days on this third rock from the sun.
Take care,
Catch
http://www.freakonomics.com/2009/05/21/quotes-uncovered-cicero-franklin-and-thatcher/
From your link....
Quotation Rule #3: Quotes that a politically conservative quoter attributes to classical figures like Cicero, and that criticize modern, allegedly liberal trends are almost always phony.
I am a say'in I don't quite feel the 100% fraud thing go'in here, based upon the author's statement above, which sure does not read as proof.
I recall from a chat with OJ a few years back that during one of his early incarnations, that he was also a speech writer for Cicero...:)
Fund Kid, if you can find this through the library system; obtain and view the 13 part BBC series from 1976, titled; I Claudius. You may find some familair situations to today's "modern" world.
Regards,
Catch
https://groups.google.com/group/alt.quotations/browse_thread/thread/d0c75b3069548f17?tvc=2&hl=en
http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2010/03/internet_and_wisdom_ancients
http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=28532
http://message.snopes.com/showpost.php?p=570302&postcount=6
I say the quote right on in the deeper sense OJ intended. Politics and human nature aint changed over all them years. Fraud? Now, politics & fraud aint exactly distant cousins. Whats more fraudulent than spooking the economy into possible talespin with all the hurt that would cause real folk than this concocted debt ceiling crisis? Remember "Et tu Brutus?"
Also, it seems like there are several versions of it. One version has foreign aid instead of public assistance. It is hard to believe Romans had foreign aid. They would rather pillage and tax.
I am not against the content of this message. At some point we should move towards balanced budgets. But trying to balance it and make deep cuts right now, is basically making the mistake of 1937 where the focus moved too quickly and created another recession.
Except for tea party backed representatives in the congress, GOP and most of their supports in business community actually realize this, but they seem to put re-election as a priority over country. By deep cuts, they would like to create an economic downfall before elections so voters would blame Obama and then when Obama is voted out of office as a result of renewed economic crisis, they would have to do no such painful action under their watch. By increasing the dept ceiling in smaller increments, they want to prolong this crisis as if this country has no other issue to tend to. I am sorry but they are playing with fire and this behavior is rather irresponsible just like it was irresponsible to say "Deficits did not matter" by VP Cheney.
Here is an interesting summary of deficits since Reagan: http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/reagan-proved-deficits-dont-matter
I believe that most reasonably open minded folks agree that there is PLENTY of blame all around here. We Democrats sometimes don't know when to stop spending, and that's the truth. On the other hand, the present rock/hard place was pretty well engineered by the Republicans during the previous administration. Wars with "deferred" payment & simultaneous tax breaks for those who don't need them- give me a break!
Now we've got self-interested and potentially destructive minorities on both sides that seem to have lost their minds, if they ever had any. And between them they might just take all of us along with them as they head over the cliff. John Boehner is really screwed... I believe that he personally could make a reasonable compromise with no problem, but he is tied hand and foot by the "Tea Party" nutcakes.
Frankly, I find the whole thing a bit scary. Remember that the Nazi party was a very distinct minority also, but they brought down an entire country. (Not saying that the Tea Partiers are Nazi- merely pointing out that in a democracy, under certain circumstances, disaster may be caused by a well-organized minority group.)
OJ
No fist fighting and I was actually expecting these developments as Congress has become more and more polarized. There is a group of freshmen in congress that is not open to any compromise. Their way or no way. This is no way to govern. It is irresponsible but veteran leadership is taken hostage by these groups.
Tee party is fairly well organized by some fringe and delusional groups and somehow convinced financially illiterate voters to back them.
The ordinary backers are not aware that they are about to self inflict themselves in the process of cutting deficit abruptly (big front loaded cuts) instead of indexing it to something like GDP growth. Otherwise, front loaded deep cuts now can snowball and in a connected and slow growing world, increase interest rates worldwide, make borrowing for businesses more expensive, lead already troubled housing sector into even more doo-doo as there will be less buyers. In the process they can destroy US dollar credibility completely (if we have not already done partially by prolonging this process)
In effect Tea party proposals can cause deflation to depression and cascade of failed businesses and even higher unemployment. This happened in 1937. It can happen again.
BTW, tea party organizers, have no problem cutting social security, medicare, medicaid which many tea party voters are actually benefiting but they cannot get themselves to get higher earners to share the burden a bit more.
If I did not believe it would be irreversibly damaging, I almost wanted that these people got what they wished for and see if they liked the outcome of their decision.