Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.

    Support MFO

  • Donate through PayPal

time to look again at emerging markets equity?

Dear friends,

I thought WallStreetRanter's note on the current price/book valuations in e.m. stocks (i.e., really low) and the historic pattern of returns (i.e. really high) after hitting such valuations was striking. GMO today released their latest seven-year asset class real return forecast. They project emerging market equities to be the highest returning asset class at 6.8% real (i.e., after inflation) returns and emerging market bonds to be the highest returning bond class (at 2.5% real).

Other asset classes:

3.1% - U.S. high quality stocks
2.4% - International stock cap stocks
2.1% - International small cap stocks
0.2% - U.S. aggregate bonds
0.2% - Inflation-linked bonds
(0.4%) - Cash
(2.0%) - International bonds
(2.1%) - U.S. large cap stocks
(3.5%) - U.S. small cap stocks

In a related note, I added to my Seafarer holdings this week.

For what it's worth,

David

Comments

  • It seems that GMO does not really mean what they say. These are some parts of the interview Inker gave to Morningstar few weeks ago, about their 7% EM forecast (I hope it is OK to copy parts of the text). For details, go to http://news.morningstar.com/articlenet/HtmlTemplate/PrintArticle.htm?time=145749279

    Inker: Well, we have not actually been acting as if we believed that 7% forecast. That 7% forecast is assuming everything goes back to normal, and one of the things we've been concerned about and that we have written about is the problem of China... As a result, we have been more cautious on emerging markets than our forecast would suggest, and we still are. Emerging markets have some real problems, and we are trying to figure out exactly how they will play out. We still think you've got to own some, because they are pretty cheap even if they do have some problems. And certainly having underperformed the U.S. by 27%, 28% so far this year, they are getting more attractive. I'm not sure they are quite as attractive as the forecast, which is assuming we get to go back to normal, when it isn't entirely clear what normal is for these economies.

    We could say it's going to be 7%, but it's going to be a bumpy ride, so hold on... The biggest concern we have is effectively that 7% return is assuming that more or less all of the very strong growth emerging markets have had for the last decade was secular growth. If some portion of it was instead this cyclic goal issue of selling into a bubble in China and when that bubble bursts, the sustainable level of sales and earnings and assets will all be lower, then it's not just that you get a bumpy ride, but you're not going to get the 7%. And that's what worries us more.

    We're perfectly happy to take a volatile 7%, and (we) may well start buying some more over the next couple of months, but the big concern is we don't quite believe it's as cheap as our standard analysis makes it look.
  • I sold my WAEMX as I indicated before, but added lil to SFGIX. I plan on selling CEMVX and CIVVX and buy CIOVX by end of the month especially if they do well, because it will good time for me to harvest some gains. So I'm actually reducing my EM exposure.
  • I Sold FTEMX And Purchased FPIVX Which Is A International Fund That Can Buy Emerging Market Stocks If They Think They Are A Good Value.
  • As I have said before, what most of us consider EM countries are really mostly in transition from emerging to developed. China is clearly past the emerging economic stage and is now much more internal/consumer driven, much less dependent on cheap wages and exports. The true emerging economies are what we call frontier countries, and there are not many ways to invest in these true emerging economies. For the most part, the top managers look at individual companies rather than countries, since many of the countries are most definitely in transition (one way or another). Wasatch WAFMX may have one of the best ways to play this huge growth story. Top manager, great company, good process. But it is important to remember that this kind of investment play comes with some significant risk, too. Unfortunately, frontier funds will be classed with and compared to general EM funds. In the end...no guts, no glory.

    Are the more traditional EM funds passe? Absolutely not, but we should probably not expect the outlying kinds of returns these have had in past decades.
  • edited August 2013
    I noticed the P/B of SFGIX is right at the same as the beaten-down index, so that's encouraging; I'm continuing to feed a little more into the fund each month.

    Of the consumer-oriented EM/FM funds I follow, WAFMX looks like the best valuation; it, THDIX and ECON are at relatively high P/B's, but the latter two are also up there in P/E and P/CF, while WAFMX is still pretty reasonable by those two measures.
  • New ETF by WisdomTree .... It does look interesting. Brief paper below outlines how it works.

    Emerging Markets Dividend Growth ETF (DGRE)

    http://www.wisdomtree.com/resource-library/pdf/materials/DGRE/WisdomTree-Case-For-DGRE-1448.pdf

  • Bought a little more FEO today as discount is around 12%. Trouble with such an allocation fund is that it really gets hammered when EM stocks and bonds go down together.
  • Reply to @BenWP: Good choice.
  • Hi Guys,

    Does anyone bother to keep score of the forecasting follies game?

    Okay, the respected GMO fund firm just released a worldwide forecast of expected future real returns for various investment classes. That’s comfort food for those planning to commit to the projected high return areas anyway. I hope the report did not influence those who were not so inclined to join the stampeding herd. That’s how bubbles are initiated.

    I like the GMO organization, and I especially respect Jeremy Grantham. They’re fine folks and he is a true knowledgeable gentleman. But has anyone scored the accuracy and reliability of their far ranging forecasts? How good are they in the forecasting business?

    Forecasters of all kinds, in all sizes, in all disciplines for all times have prospered forever. Historically, that prosperity is derived from their fees, not from their prescient prognostication abilities.

    Probably the most extensive study of forecasting accuracy was conducted by professor Phil Tetlock over a 20 year period consulting roughly 300 experts (most often in the political arena). Over 70,000 forecasts were evaluated and scored. On average, these wizards scored just over 50 % correct. A “no change” judgment would have done about as well. A simple linear extrapolation algorithm would have bested the wiz-kids in many instances. From this work, Tetlock coined the Fox and Hedgehog grouping of experts. He trusted the Foxes of the world.

    Way back in a1932 paper, Alfred Crowles 3rd asked the mutual fund management question “Can Forecasters Forecast? His research data answered a definite “No”. That early research finding has been echoed time and time again by an endless stream of academic and industry research work. The WSJ and Barron’s assess their stock picking genius frequently. Sometimes they exceed dart throwing monkeys: sometimes they don’t. In all cases, the margin of victory is thin.

    Reacting to market guru forecasts is hazardous to your end wealth.

    There is no doubt that the GMO family of funds is a quality operation. They own a respectable overall performance record. By my stars, they tend to underperform slightly in a bull market environment, but demonstrate their mettle with superior rewards when the marketplace is in serious turmoil. That’s an attractive and worthy attribute.

    But how good are they at forecasting future real returns around the globe? That’s a daunting challenge that they must accept when they publish predictions. It’s fair that GMO should be prepared to be rated equally on all its forecasts; both its good ones and its bad ones. But that doesn’t ever seem to happen.

    Typically, forecasters get to tout their victories and are permitted to conveniently forget their failures. I have a higher standard. Before I trust a forecaster, I need access to his entire forecasting historical record. Of course I am never granted that access, so I basically distrust all forecasts and do not react to them.

    But just one moment please. Jeremy Grantham does have a verifiable prediction record. It was generated over the years by the CXO Advisory Group. It is contained in their Gurus section. Here is the Link:

    http://www.cxoadvisory.com/gurus/

    In reviewing the listing, Jeremy Grantham made 37 evaluated forecasts and received a 47,5 % accuracy grade. Not too bad; not too good. A lot like tossing a coin. Comparatively, he scored in the middle of the total guru distribution population. I’m singularly not impressed.

    A seven year forecast is a long stretch given that forecasting just 6 months ahead is tough. Forecast accuracy degrades as the time dimension increases. I hope you guys did not invest in emerging markets based solely on the GMO forecast. That’s a risky adventure, maybe even a gamble.

    I stay away from forecasts, indeed, very far way. They usually are sheer nonsense, equivalent to financial pornography.

    Best Wishes.
  • edited August 2013
    Reply to @MJG:
    But has anyone scored the accuracy and reliability of their far ranging forecasts?
    Yes: public.econ.duke.edu/Papers//PDF/GMO_Predictions1.pdf
    4. Conclusion
    The GMO predictions are prescient enough to be a useful input into investment
    decisions. Investors should be grateful to GMO for providing this free service.
  • Forbes: For Emerging Markets, Better Luck Next Year?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2013/08/09/for-emerging-markets-better-luck-next-year/
    It’s been a tough year for emerging markets, with only a few exceptions (Philippines, for instance.) Whether these growth markets do better next year is anybody’s guess. Investors might have to wait until the smoke clears from Fed tapering, expected by the first quarter of 2014, and signs of life in the entire eurozone, rather than just Germany.

    Michael Reynal, one of two portfolio managers at the $492 million RS Emerging Markets Fund (GBEMX), says he is not waiting for stronger tailwinds. Get this, Reynal’s fund has even loaded up on China Construction Bank. A bank. In China. Some might call that crazy.

    But with China banks trading at just 0.6 times book value across the board, Reynal has his eyes set on the long haul. After all, if you don’t buy low, you buy high.

    “Here’s where I sit. I’m pretty comfortable saying that we’ve seen the bulk of the downside in emerging,” Reynal told Forbes on Friday. The MSCI Emerging Markets Index is down 10.88% year-to-date. Even basket case Europe is doing better. Thanks to monetary stimulus, the MSCI Europe index is up 8.67%.
  • edited August 2013
    Reply to @MJG: Oddly enough, there have been studies of the predictive validity of GMO's rankings. Wall Street Ranter just reproduced a nice graphic on his website, in which GMO reports the results of their projections. It's linked to his story "Rally Continues to Reduce GMO's Asset Class Forecasts." There's a readable little paper from Duke ("Are GMO's Predictions Prescient?") that's pretty consistent with this chart but that I can't link to for the life of me. Likewise, a 2010 study by CXO Advisory. Mebane Faber describes the projections as "often eerily accurate."

    In general, GMO seems to get the rank-ordering mostly right (their highest projected asset class is likely going to end up #1) and the order of magnitude mostly right (if they say it'll be modest negative, it's likely to be negative. GMO does give error ranges for each projection, which some being really substantial.

    For what it's worth,

    David
  • The Matthews China Dividend Fund (MCDFX) has a 1.5-ish P/B too.
  • MJG
    edited August 2013
    Reply to @David_Snowball:

    Hi Guys,

    Thank you both for the Duke and CXO references. I was totally unaware of their existence. I was able to access both sources and have quickly scanned them. Good stuff.

    My immediate reaction, based on their bottom-line conclusions was a definite wow. The GMO team do superior forecasting work. Perhaps they indeed are the exception that prove the more common dismal forecasting rule.

    Upon a deeper, reflective reading of the documentation, I feel the need to curb my original enthusiasm, at least just a little.

    The Duke University brief study showed overall prediction correlation factors in the 0.78 to 0.94 range. That’s pretty impressive, but certainly not perfect. Although the GMO predictions got the direction right for all 3 bond cases (that’s relatively easy), it failed directionally in 3 of the 5 more challenging equity cases examined. Although the return magnitudes were only off by a percent or two, the percentage errors were in the double digit ranges. Not bad, but not exceptional.

    Within the text of the Duke report, the researcher observes that since the highest ranked class did not always dominate the annual returns the results are “….. suggesting limits to the trust one should put in the GMO predictions as a tool for short-term prediction”. That’s not an unconstrained endorsement of the GMO methodology.

    As John Bogle demonstrated in the first edition of his “Common Sense on Mutual Funds” book, longer term performance predictions are far more reliable than shorter-term projections. The longer-term forecasts benefit from complete market cycles and from the ubiquitous regression-to-the-mean tendency of the marketplace. Bogle shows the consistency of equity returns over many decades of 10-year increments.

    The CXO acid out-of-sample test examined the GMO 10-year forecast made at the end of 1999 against the actual market results for that decade, ending in 2010. The GMO group did an excellent job at predicting class rankings. They demonstrated skill in that measurement well beyond a random chance success. Once again the disparity between actual and predicted returns was double digit on a percentage basis.

    CXO concludes that “building an investment strategy around these long-term forecasts seems problematic”,

    CXO Advisory Group also highlighted the forecasting accuracy difficulty of more volatile short-term performance estimates against the less violent aspects of longer-term predictions. In the marketplace, time is a smoothing operation. The market data illustrates that trend.

    Given the rather modest return forecasts typically featured in the GMO quarterly predictions, Phil Tetlock would probably classify the GMO team as Foxes. They are likely to produce more accurate, but less dramatic predictions. Studies suggest that Foxes have a higher prediction accuracy score over Hedgehogs.

    I love this stuff. I wonder if there have been more recent updates of studies like those completed at Duke and at CXO? Both Duke and CXO do commendable, investor exploitable work.

    Thanks again Guys. You made my day. Just a little forecast scoring is actually done. That’s goodness.

    Best Wishes.
  • Emerging-market fears hide enticing valuations

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/emerging-market-fears-hide-enticing-valuations-2013-08-16
    “Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful.”

    It’s one of Warren Buffet’s most famous quotes and an apt one at that. It has certainly proven prophetic for those who took advantage during panics like five years ago. With the U.S. market up an astounding 20% year to date, there are certainly many who are now just a tad greedy.

    But what are people afraid of right now? A quick look at the news and world markets makes that clear: emerging markets.

    In a surprise twist to the decade-long bull story of emerging markets, the last few years have been a distinctly different chapter. Ten years ago in 2003 emerging markets started their massive bull run; five consecutive years of double-digit returns averaging over 37% per year as measured by the MSCI Emerging Markets Index, vastly outperforming the S&P 500 index return of 13%.

    Following a disastrous 53% drop in 2008, emerging markets roared back with a 79% gain in 2009.

    Since then however, emerging-market performances have been mixed. While the index gained 19% in 2010 and 2012, it dropped 18% in 2011 resulting in only a 5% annualized return, half that of the S&P 500.

  • edited August 2013
    Buffett Acolyte Zhao Returns to China Stocks
    Zhao Danyang, the Chinese investor who won a charity lunch with billionaire Warren Buffett in 2008, led his hedge funds to post returns three times more than their Asian peers this year by shifting assets back to Chinese stocks.

    Zhao’s Hong Kong-based Pureheart Capital Asia Ltd. has more than 80 percent of its $217 million in Chinese stocks traded in Hong Kong, Singapore, the U.S. and at home from 50 percent at the start of 2013, said Jerrie Huang, its business development manager. The $162 million Pure Heart Value Investment Fund returned 24 percent this year through July, Huang said. The Eurekahedge Asian Hedge Fund Index rose 8 percent in the first seven months.

    Pureheart is returning to Chinese stocks after six years of corrections cut their valuation close to historical lows, Huang said. It decided in January 2008 to liquidate all five funds that specialized in yuan shares, with combined assets of about $200 million, because it could no longer find any attractive investment opportunities, it said in statements then.

    “There is no doubt that the China stock market is still in a bear market,” Pureheart said in a July newsletter to investors, adding it marks a “good time for optimists” like itself. “The falling share prices will provide a very good opportunity for us to buy the carefully selected shares at a bargain.”
Sign In or Register to comment.