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"The higher umbrella coverage you have you can bet your arse that your insurance company will fight like tooth and nails to defend you....the senior attorney's will work the case...they don't want to pay up..."
May be the group can weigh in with their views on the merits and demerits of getting as much coverage as the insurance company is willing to offer (within the limits of your total assets) without a lot off paper work and qualifications.
"The higher umbrella coverage you have you can bet your arse that your insurance company will fight like tooth and nails to defend you....the senior attorney's will work the case...they don't want to pay up..."
May be the group can weigh in with their views on the merits and demerits of getting as much coverage as the insurance company is willing to offer (within the limits of your total assets) without a lot off paper work and qualifications.
I carry a large umbrella. When I switched from GEICO to Erie a few years ago, I made the request, and b/c I asked for an amount somewhat more than they usually expect, it took the company an extra few days to (I guess) check me out and give my local agent the go-ahead. I probably could've asked for more, but let's not get too crazy.
My umbrella, as part of my home/auto/umbrella package was not an expensive policy. In fact, going from GEICO to Erie (when notifying me my auto rate was goin up 30% in 2022) I saved probably 40% ... and probably should've switched a loooong time ago.
Question, does anyone know if you are an actual long time loyal insurance customer with a company... do you actually pay more, yes, meaning like with a cable company. I know for a fact these insurance companies have a small army of actuaries on staff and id bet they're running all kinds of queries etc.
Another question...do you think rates also might be going up in part due to AI, machine learning software that is indicating ah take this person's rates up this year. Maybe new inputs into their algorithms... I'm told there are interesting inputs such as how recently did the water department flush the hydrant xyz yards from your home...
Noting that State farm claims (pun intended) they lost money last year
In California at least State Farm is attempting to limit their exposure to potential losses to a level that can be supported by premium revenue. To this end they have recently cancelled policies which were located in geographic areas that they deemed exposed to risks above an "acceptable" level. Following are excerpts from their annual report.
In 2023, State Farm property and casualty insurance companies experienced growth in policies while also reporting underwriting losses due to continued elevated claims severity and significant catastrophe activity, for both the auto and homeowners insurance companies.
The State Farm Personal Property and Casualty Insurance group reported earned premium of $87.6 billion and a combined underwriting loss of $14.1 billion. This result compared to an underwriting loss of $13.2 billion on earned premium of $74.3 billion in 2022.
"AI" may be responsible for more detailed and accurate identification of insurance risks, but the primary cause of those risk increases is the current degree of climate change, which is increasing in intensity each and every year. Individuals may or may not believe that to be true, but the insurance industry has no doubt at all.
In dollar terms for my $1M umbrella policy, I'm paying ~$270/yr with NYCM. Erie quoted me ~$185 for a 1-year policy, so the cost per insurance company can vary greatly.
Interesting thread. Our auto insurance rose 33% in January, from $270 to $360 a month. I was led to believe that it was because we had made several claims over the past couple years— all accidents in which we were not at fault. I probably should start shopping for a new insurance company, although I’ve been satisfied with the service provided by State Farm. Our previous insurance company (Kemper) refused to pay for damages to our house caused by a severe thunderstorm and hail. I never such problems with State Farm.
Be aware that there are central information agencies which supply every bit of information regarding your personal history that they can scrape up to the insurance companies. And the insurance companies (at least many of them) contribute to and rely upon that info. So your history with any particular insurance company is highly likely to be known to another company. And this is all before any "AI improvements" in the data gathering and interpretation. And it's only going to get worse.
@Tarwheel - you make a very important point which hasn't really been discussed here- the track record of different insurance companies with respect to actually doing what we pay them to do. What's the advantage of paying a smaller premium if you have to fight for every dollar when making a claim?
Keep in mind there are likely 100 to 150 million more people living in the USA then when many reading this were in high school..let alone likely a couple billion more on the planet. Of course this will have impact to some degree on the environment. From an insurance point of view, homes are being built where they weren't before and arguably shouldn't be . Take into account kooky policies which arguably have made things more difficult such as no controlled burns etc.
At what point does the business model break? Would you pay 2%, how about 3%, what about 5% of the value of your house or car every year? I guess some already are, no? I keep telling my wife, the local ice cream shops are on that edge, their business model is going kaput...take the wife and two kids for ice cream and drop $30?
To repeat what I posted earlier in this discussion:
When entire large contiguous communities are at risk because of one single loss situation (especially weather or fire related) that model simply doesn't work.
The reality is that the insurance model as we have known it is disappearing piece-by-piece, and no major financial or government entity has yet advanced a sustainable replacement model. California and Florida are your coal-mine canaries.
I got an umbrella policy many moons ago when my teens started driving and kept it after they flew the coup since I then had a boat. I needed to have a certain amount of base coverage (which I had) before I could get an umbrella policy. I was told at the time usually if you are sued they look at your coverage and sue for that amount. If you have 1M you'll probably get sued for 1M If you have 2M you'll get sued for 2M. I agree the larger the policy the more defense you'll get from your insurance company to save themselves that money.
I stayed with one insurance company (my first) for a long time thinking loyalty and being a good customer mattered until I found out I was just a number. I then went to a local broker that searched and saved me about 1K/yr on all policies. I liked the companies they recommended so I went with them. It's been about 5+ years now and I'm debating having them do another search to get a new picture of current rates. Maybe do that every 5 years or so. It's a little bit of a hassle switching but as they say, it's not personal, it's just business. Heck I switched internet/cable service back and forth several times between the same companies over the years because they wouldn't meet what was offered by their competitors. Maybe I can do the same with insurance although insurance is a bit different as you need to be comfortable with your companies reputation.
Before switching companies take time to review claims processing reviews. No point switching to save money and then face hardship with the insurance company when on the off chance you make a claim.
Thousands more Californians will lose their home insurance this summer as two more insurers withdraw from the state.
In filings with the California Department of Insurance, Tokio Marine America Insurance Co. and Trans Pacific Insurance Co. said they would both withdraw from the homeowners and personal umbrella insurance markets in California. Both are subsidiaries of Tokio Marine Holdings Inc., a Japanese company.
The two companies together insured 12,556 homeowner policies in California with $11.3 million in premiums, according to their filings. Tokio Marine also insured 2,732 personal umbrella policies, for liability, [with premiums] worth $400,000.
The companies will begin sending nonrenewal notices to customers starting July 1, according to the filings. They did not provide breakdowns of where their policies are distributed across the state.
A Tokio Marine America spokesperson said in a statement that the company is exiting the personal home insurance and liability market but would continue to provide commercial insurance.
The Seven-Eleven on 8th Avenue near my hotel in January required an armed guard to come to the beer cooler, unlock it, and observe me as I read the labels on a few different 24 oz. cans. Kinda takes the joy out of buying a can of beer.
Had never heard of an umbrella policy before this thread. Homeowner’s policy certainly covers liability. Perhaps I need more coverage. With several acres here there’s always possibility of somebody wandering onto the property and getting hurt. Then there’s the frequent 8-10 mile bicycle rides. Suppose an injury / lawsuit could result from that. A lot to chew on.
A large supermarket in our neighborhood now has all liquor locked behind glass doors. The Walgreen's drug store a block away now has much of it's merchandise similarly locked up. And this is a very low-crime wealthy San Francisco neighborhood, so I can only speculate what's likely going on in other areas.
Question for the group, I just purchased an umbrella policy. Do others have this insurance? It isn't that expensive, and it keeps you from losing a bundle in a law suit, for example someone badly hurt on your property or in a car accident. Regular HO and car insurance cover to a point, but if God-forbid you are at fault and sued for more than that coverage, it could hit hard on your life savings.
Like rforno, our umbrella (I think that Chubb calls it "excess liability") is part of the home and auto policy. I understand its purpose as relates to extended home and auto liability protection. If someone sues us for reasons not related to our home or auto (a slander lawsuit for example), is there any protection with an umbrella policy?
@Mona - msf, in an earlier post in this thread, found the slander coverage under the "Personal Liability" section of his umbrella coverage. Then checking our State Farm policy I found it to be similar- also under "Personal Coverage".
Like rforno, our umbrella (I think that Chubb calls it "excess liability") is part of the home and auto policy. I understand its purpose as relates to extended home and auto liability protection. If someone sues us for reasons not related to our home or auto (a slander lawsuit for example), is there any protection with an umbrella policy?
That depends on whether it is an excess liability policy or a true umbrella policy. The former only increases coverage limits of the underlying policies. It doesn't add coverage for unrelated reasons unlike an umbrella policy that usually does.
An excess liability policy is similar to an umbrella in that it picks up where the underlying liability policies cease making payments, but it is designed to pay claims in the same way that the underlying policies pay the claim. That tells us that claims that would be excluded by an underlying policy are also excluded by the excess policy.
With all this insurance talk, I did speak to my independent agent about an umbrella policy. He is just a one agent shop and it turns out he is losing access to Grange Insurance which is where our 2 cars and homeowners' coverage is through.
So, he has just finished requoting our policies, including an umbrella policy all through Progressive Insurance.
$1 million umbrella policy, $227.00 for 12 months. Homeowner's policy will be 5.6% lower for 12 months and includes a bump up in liability coverage to $500,000. Our new auto policy covering our 2 cars will be 47.6% LESS (YES, THAT IS CORRECT!), and includes higher liability and uninsured protection $250,000/500,000, was $100,000/300,000 for each category.
Over the course of 12 months our premiums will be nearly $400 less and will now include the umbrella policy.
Turns out Flo is correct when it comes to bundling and saving!!
@Roy - that's great- good for you. Out here in CA we're lucky to find insurance at all. And on top of all of your coverages we have to worry about earthquake also.
Had never heard of an umbrella policy before this thread. Homeowner’s policy certainly covers liability. Perhaps I need more coverage. With several acres here there’s always possibility of somebody wandering onto the property and getting hurt. Then there’s the frequent 8-10 mile bicycle rides. Suppose an injury / lawsuit could result from that. A lot to chew on.
I started my umbrella policy once the kids started driving. I actually had a few $$$ in the bank at that time and I didn't want a mistake by them to take it away. I then got a boat and decided to keep it as accidents unfortunately happen. The more you have the more you probably need an umbrella policy.
@gman57. Sold our boat this month and our umbrella went down by fifty bucks. Selling our much loved sailboat was very bittersweet. Happiest and saddest day all at once.
The two happiest days in a man’s life: (1) When he buys a boat, (2) When he sells it.
At least that’s how it occurred to me. The boat had aged and needed constant expensive repair. I never carried insurance on it as the rates are much higher if operated on the great lakes rather than just inland waters. With all the increased small-craft traffic, that was another reason to get rid of it.
Hank. It was a really happy day . It was a really sad day. I am an old guy and we owned that boat for a third of my life. The slip on San Francisco Bay was more than my first mortgage. And insurance operating on the Pacific is costly. . It was time. If you apply the 4% rule to owning that boat ,,,,,,,you need a substantial portfolio.
Comments
"The higher umbrella coverage you have you can bet your arse that your insurance company will fight like tooth and nails to defend you....the senior attorney's will work the case...they don't want to pay up..."
May be the group can weigh in with their views on the merits and demerits of getting as much coverage as the insurance company is willing to offer (within the limits of your total assets) without a lot off paper work and qualifications.
My umbrella, as part of my home/auto/umbrella package was not an expensive policy. In fact, going from GEICO to Erie (when notifying me my auto rate was goin up 30% in 2022) I saved probably 40% ... and probably should've switched a loooong time ago.
Another question...do you think rates also might be going up in part due to AI, machine learning software that is indicating ah take this person's rates up this year. Maybe new inputs into their algorithms... I'm told there are interesting inputs such as how recently did the water department flush the hydrant xyz yards from your home...
Noting that State farm claims (pun intended) they lost money last year
Now that is a new development. That's going to put a lot of Tarot card readers out of a job.
@Tarwheel - you make a very important point which hasn't really been discussed here- the track record of different insurance companies with respect to actually doing what we pay them to do. What's the advantage of paying a smaller premium if you have to fight for every dollar when making a claim?
At what point does the business model break? Would you pay 2%, how about 3%, what about 5% of the value of your house or car every year? I guess some already are, no? I keep telling my wife, the local ice cream shops are on that edge, their business model is going kaput...take the wife and two kids for ice cream and drop $30?
I stayed with one insurance company (my first) for a long time thinking loyalty and being a good customer mattered until I found out I was just a number. I then went to a local broker that searched and saved me about 1K/yr on all policies. I liked the companies they recommended so I went with them. It's been about 5+ years now and I'm debating having them do another search to get a new picture of current rates. Maybe do that every 5 years or so. It's a little bit of a hassle switching but as they say, it's not personal, it's just business. Heck I switched internet/cable service back and forth several times between the same companies over the years because they wouldn't meet what was offered by their competitors. Maybe I can do the same with insurance although insurance is a bit different as you need to be comfortable with your companies reputation.
The Seven-Eleven on 8th Avenue near my hotel in January required an armed guard to come to the beer cooler, unlock it, and observe me as I read the labels on a few different 24 oz. cans. Kinda takes the joy out of buying a can of beer.
Had never heard of an umbrella policy before this thread. Homeowner’s policy certainly covers liability. Perhaps I need more coverage. With several acres here there’s always possibility of somebody wandering onto the property and getting hurt. Then there’s the frequent 8-10 mile bicycle rides. Suppose an injury / lawsuit could result from that. A lot to chew on.
That depends on whether it is an excess liability policy or a true umbrella policy. The former only increases coverage limits of the underlying policies. It doesn't add coverage for unrelated reasons unlike an umbrella policy that usually does. https://www.insurancejournal.com/magazines/mag-features/2020/06/15/572063.htm
So, he has just finished requoting our policies, including an umbrella policy all through Progressive Insurance.
$1 million umbrella policy, $227.00 for 12 months. Homeowner's policy will be 5.6% lower for 12 months and includes a bump up in liability coverage to $500,000. Our new auto policy covering our 2 cars will be 47.6% LESS (YES, THAT IS CORRECT!), and includes higher liability and uninsured protection $250,000/500,000, was $100,000/300,000 for each category.
Over the course of 12 months our premiums will be nearly $400 less and will now include the umbrella policy.
Turns out Flo is correct when it comes to bundling and saving!!
At least that’s how it occurred to me. The boat had aged and needed constant expensive repair. I never carried insurance on it as the rates are much higher if operated on the great lakes rather than just inland waters. With all the increased small-craft traffic, that was another reason to get rid of it.