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NHYDY. Inspector Clouseau would say.....

"...The mystery is solv-ed."

I saw, upon receipt of the scheduled NHYDY dividend some time ago, that 25% of that dividend was "withheld at the source." (And there was also a "depositary service fee" I got dinged for, which was just $7.28.)

....Then just the other day, I bumped into a Seeking Alpha article re: NHYDY asserting that the Norwegian withholding tax was 15%. ... So, I sent a message, asking my broker (TRP) about it.

Come to find out: NON-NORWEGIANS are subject to 25% withholding. (From the company's own website---so TRP informs me.) That fact sucks mountains of mud. But life is full of stinky surprises. "Life sucks, and then you die." What the hell, right? The stock has been falling along with the rest of the Market. Yet now that I finally have clarity about the withholding issue, I believe I will stick with it. Aluminum and green energy. And lately, I just read that the company has joined with the Norwegian Church Fund to create a solar power company.

That might sound strange. But I understand, for example, that Germans pay taxes to support the churches, whether or not they belong or attend. Must be something similar.

And that's all I have to say about that. ----Forrest Gump. :)

Comments

  • Is this the SA piece you're talking about ("Norway's WHT is 15%.")?
    https://seekingalpha.com/article/4633977-we-expect-lower-earnings-from-aluminium-giant-norsk-hydro

    From the company's own website:
    The withholding tax of 25 percent may be lower pursuant to tax treaties between Norway and the country in which the shareholder is resident. The Treaty rate is generally 15 percent. [The treaty rate w/US is 15%.] The Treaty withholding tax rate will generally apply to dividends paid on shares held directly by U.S. holders that are residents of the United States within the meaning of the Treaty.
    https://www.hydro.com/en-US/investors/information-for-shareholders/taxation-guide/

    Perhaps you are ineligible for the lower rate because you hold the company indirectly via an ADR? I don't know. If you are eligible, it seems that you have to file some paperwork to get the 15% rate. Continuing from the company's website:
    all foreign shareholders must document their identity and tax status in order to receive a reduced (or zero) withholding tax. This is done by filing an application to the Central Office for Foreign Tax Affairs for getting a permission to resume or start using a reduced withholding tax rate. Please contact Norsk Hydro’s account operator at [email protected] for assistance.
    I imagine that you may be eligible for a dollar-for-dollar reduction in federal taxes (foreign tax credit) up to your tax rate. But this is not something I delve into too deeply.

    I ran across this page that does a pretty good job of going through the issues above. Coincidentally, it uses a German company (SAP SE) as an example.
    https://einvestingforbeginners.com/adr-dividend-tax/
  • I have recently been reading that one, or more, rare earths can be recovered while processing ore (Bauxite?) into aluminum.

    Capacity to produce such by-products from ordinary smelting activity has declined around the globe due to Chinese subsidies to its domestic producers over preceding decades.

    Now China is restricting the export of these materials, as if that wouldn't create a market for companies like Norsk Hydro to get back into processing them.

    Getting back to the OP, Crash's Norwegian taxes may be supporting the efforts of the Norwegian Seamen's Mission.
  • edited September 2023
    Glad for the responses. :)
    @msf I will follow up on that. Great information. THANK you! (Yes, that's the S.A. article I was reading. ) I'm disappointed now, that TRP did not go just one step further and inform me of what YOU told me, above. :(

    *Edit: I just sent an email to that email address provided by "Hydro" in order to request the withholding exemption. We'll see what happens next. .....
  • edited September 2023
    Seems like we’ve covered this before. The 25% w/h tax is pretty typical in Europe on foreign investors. However, some of them have a special treaty agreement with the U.S. and Canada limiting the tax to only 15%. Apparently, Norway is not a signatory to that pact. There may be a way to claw back some of that with a claim to the IRS. I’ve heard it’s difficult. However, cap gains are not so widely taxed. So, by trading in and out of an ADR you might reap some tax free cap gains that help offset the w/h tax. I happen to own an ADR on a company based in Switzerland. They are members of the pact that limits the w/h tax to 15%. And, they have 0 cap gains tax. I wouldn’t mess with those that claim 25%. There’s a lot of angles to this. Should the dollar weaken, outsized gains would accrue from foreign holdings.

    PS - My understanding is that if you own a mutual fund having part or all of its assets in these countries, the tax paid by the fund is hidden away in “other expenses” so that most investors probably don’t realize they’re paying it. No free lunch.
  • hank said:

    PS - My understanding is that if you own a mutual fund having part or all of its assets in these countries, the tax paid by the fund is hidden away in “other expenses” so that most investors probably don’t realize they’re paying it. No free lunch.

    I have always received a statement on foreign taxes paid from the various funds that had any exposure. There was no place to put it on the 1040-SR last year. Too lazy to look at older returns from the days when we could itemize.
  • Foreign Tax is now moved to 1040, Schedule 3.
  • @hank. Yes, I mentioned it before. But @msf has provided new information. I've sent an email already. Everywhere, the rules are more restrictive, but the link provided offers an email address as initial contact in order to request "reduced or zero withholding." That's what I've done. (NHYDY.)
  • Schedule 3, line 1 (foreign tax credit) gets totaled in Schedule 3, line 1, and carried over into 1040-SR line 20 (in the "taxes and credits" section).

    https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040s3.pdf
    https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040s.pdf

    Mutual funds can always treat taxes the same as office expenses, manager salaries, etc., i.e. as expenses that reduce returns, much as hank described.

    Alternatively, they may be permitted to treat foreign taxes as expenses you are responsible for. This is a part of a legal fiction where they add those foreign taxes to your actual (hard cash) divs on the 1099-DIV, but also say that instead of handing you that cash they are paying those taxes on your behalf. That lets you declare the foreign taxes as your expenses, rather than as the fund's.

    Most funds paying foreign taxes don't do this. Many supposedly domestic funds have a little bit of foreign investment on which they may be paying foreign taxes - you never see this on your 1099s. Even many global funds don't do this, often because they don't legally qualify.

    In order for a fund with foreign exposure to pass through a foreign tax credit, it must elect to do so (26 U.S. Code § 853), it must have over 50% of its value at end of tax year in foreign companies (§ 853(a)), and it must meet technical requirements of § 852(a).

    Here's how the IRS describes this:
    https://www.federalregister.gov/d/E7-16737/p-17
  • Yes, I recall Matthews funds sent us an IRS form re: the amount of foreign tax paid. Years ago, when I owned Matthews. But if your IRS tax due is 0 anyhow, there's nothing to deduct that foreign tax "against." It's just a sunk cost.
  • UPDATE: re my tax exemption request in Norway.......
    NO RESPONSE yet. Dotcha just love dealing with bureaucracies?
  • edited October 2023
    ......And my only holding keeping its head above water today, 03 October, 2023?
    NHYDY. Up +0.26%.
  • .....19 October. '23. Still no word. I may send a third (and final-sounding) message to see if anyone is actually awake and present and able to think and is paying attention and gives a shit. For the time being, I'll let it ride. Dividend comes just once per year, in May. My position is small enough that it doesn't matter much to my bottom line. After the next div, I'll sell it and get out. It's a solid business. I just hate to be ignored and disregarded. This is fecal.
  • edited October 2023
    31 October, 2023: at last, I received a prompt and coherent response via email. What she provided was a direct link, in order to file for a repayment of the over-withholding that the lovely and fabulous Norwegian government no doubt required Norsk Hydro to keep from me. (They withheld 25%, but the tax treaty with the USA mandates only 15% withholding. I only just now found that out, after clicking on the link provided.)

    That same link advises that in order to apply for the refund on overpaid taxes, I must create a user name and set up a bloody account with the Norway tax authority, and jump through way more hoops than any of this is worth. So, I just won't be adding to my NHYDY position. When the share price rises sufficiently out of the red ink, and perhaps after NEXT year's dividend arrives, I'll exit NHYDY.

    ...Now, let's see what happens with Tenaris: HQ in Luxembourg....... (TS.)
  • @Crash: not related to your problem in Norway, but we found traveling there to be exorbitantly expensive. Our car rental agreement, despite an already high rate, carried a 25% surcharge added to the whole f'n bill.
  • BenWP said:

    @Crash: not related to your problem in Norway, but we found traveling there to be exorbitantly expensive. Our car rental agreement, despite an already high rate, carried a 25% surcharge added to the whole f'n bill.

    Holy Jaypers Glop!
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