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Biden, McCarthy have tentative US debt ceiling deal
davidrmoran, I know you are well intentioned, and to some extent I am amused with our periodic debates. I do find it disappointing that you choose to use adolescent/trumpian name calling in your posts--that weakens your presentations. My only major disagreement with you is your entrenched and partisan posts. Democrats have their weaknesses, and Republicans are not all right wing insurrectionists. A little more "bothsidedness" would strengthen the effectiveness of your posts. Inflexible partisanship is what is moving me away from my prior Democratic mindset, to more of an Independent mindset. If we don't find more bipartisan ways of viewing political issues, I fear neither major political party will be able to "see the forest because of the trees". I am encouraged there is a proposed bipartisan solution to the debt crisis, and that both extreme wings of our major parties, are upset about that! Hopefully, the more moderate factions of both parties will hold stready and relish the outcome of bipartisanship.
@dt. “Very fine people on both sides”. No Dt from Texas,,,,one side poses an existential threat to our democracy, one side doesn’t. One side threatens our daily well being with the worship of guns and the acceptance of every week mass shootings. One side got Covid and died from Covid at a higher rate because of you tell me,,,, one side wants to exclude whole groups from the greater community of citizens…. One group wants to turn back the clock on voting rights. Both sides are not fine. One party is so far from decency and democratic norms that ALL patriots need to make sure they lose every election until they return to something resembling what this country stands for. No dt. We don’t need more “bothsideness”
>> use adolescent/trumpian namecalling in your posts >> entrenched and partisan posts.
More than twice now you have trotted out your academic credentials re training in evidentiary processes and so on. You are going to have to provide some substantiation for these charges. You may have more in common with your belle than you realize.
>> Democrats have their weaknesses, and Republicans are not all rightwing insurrectionists.
Have I said this?
>> A little more "bothsidedness" would strengthen the effectiveness of your posts.
This false equivalence is weak nonsense and is the flaw in your thinking, that this is somehow a balancing process.
>> Inflexible partisanship
Again evidence. I am not and never have been a Democrat. But that's unimportant. I know evil when I see it.
You are making up a bunch of strawman arguments to support your bothsidesism.
>> is what is moving me away from my prior Democratic mindset, to more of an Independent mindset.
This can only be good!
>> If we don't find more bipartisan ways of viewing political issues,
There is no rule here, man. All that matters is the substance and the evidence. Gun controls? Women's autonomy? Equal voting rights? Carried interest? Shared public health responses? You are missing that all of these have historically had bipartisan support. What happened?
and might seem to augment some of your wishes. I think it also, or largely, does the opposite, but I offer it for the nuances (and tracing to Fox) which it offers.
davidrmoran: "This false equivalence is weak nonsense and is the flaw in your thinking, that this is somehow a balancing process."
As I said, you do amuse me. The quote above is an example of your thinking that is very short sighted and very partisan. All acts of violence from rioting, that leads to murder, property destruction, crimes leading to incarceration are awful and unacceptable, and should be condemned as such. Are they all equivalent, probably not, but they are all reprehensible and should be condemned. Democratic Mayors, Democratic Governors, and even Democratic Presidents warn against all rioting that burn, loot, and kill in the name of some issue they are angry about, are condemned and warned of the consequences of their behavior. Many of these riots are permeated by a "faction" of the Democratic party, a faction that the Democrats needed to get elected. You are an outspoken speaker for the Democratic party, but you refuse to condemn these violent acts that cause devastation to cities and their citizens. You want to dismiss the actions of that faction of the Democratic Party because they are not an equivalent to the January 6 insurrection.
A less partisan point of view, would be condemning of both of these abhorrent riotous acts that have led to death, property damage, and incarceration for crimes committed in those acts. Sadly, you are unwilling to condemn that faction of the Democratic Party, but you are quick to condemn the Republican faction responsible for the Insurrection. Is one somehow forgiveable and not worthy of mentioning faction behavior, while the other is unforgiveable because it is different and you consider it more serious. Both are abhorrent, both are deserving of condemnation, and "equivalency" is not required for condemnation of both acts of violence.
@dt. “Very fine people on both sides”. No Dt from Texas,,,,one side poses an existential threat to our democracy, one side doesn’t. One side threatens our daily well being with the worship of guns and the acceptance of every week mass shootings. One side got Covid and died from Covid at a higher rate because of you tell me,,,, one side wants to exclude whole groups from the greater community of citizens…. One group wants to turn back the clock on voting rights. Both sides are not fine. One party is so far from decency and democratic norms that ALL patriots need to make sure they lose every election until they return to something resembling what this country stands for. No dt. We don’t need more “bothsideness”
Jesus, listen to yourself! You generalize about Republicans as if they are all worshipers of guns, none supported Covid vaccinations, all are against voting rights, and none of them are decent and support democratic norms. It is that kind of blind partisanship that is so dangerous in our society. You need to quit drinking that koolaid and find the good that does exist in many membersof the Republican Party. There are some very very good republicans who are just normal people, many of whom believe many of the same things as moderate democrats. Some of my closest friends are Republicans, who do not own a gun, love their black transgender grandchild, and their black grandson who is attending college. Those republican friends of ours are adamant about keeping up with their Covid vaccinations, they were appalled at the Jan 6 insurrectionists, and they are strong supporters of voting rights. Get out in the world and discover some goodness and kindness that exists, instead of simmering in your hate that is so dangerous.
@dt. Both sides are not fine. One party is so far from decency and democratic norms that ALL patriots need to make sure they lose every election until they return to something resembling what this country stands for. No dt. We don’t need more “bothsideness”
Have you asked yourself, larryB, why the white working class, for example, who until recently was one of the main supporters of the Democratic Party, have largely abandoned it. They still supported Obama in 2008 and 2012, so you can't call all of them racists.
A similar trend is developing among Latinos, especially in Texas, of all places. Why? In NY City, a centrist Democrat won the last mayoral election with the overwhelming support of black voters. "Defunding the Police", for example, was not a message that resonated with most voters.
Maybe the Democratic Party has to first examine itself and its message before it can expect to attract again large numbers of decent "patriots". Appealing to tribal groups and supporting fringe issues, as it often does, is apparently not a successful formula to win elections.
IMHO, the Democrats also need to "return to something resembling what this country stands for". It's too simple just to blame the other party for lacking "decency and democratic norms", as you do.
Who is , by a wide margin, the leader of the GOP? And what unites his followers?
I am repeating myself, but what is the Democratic Party offering its former supporters to entice them to return its fold, to have a reason to turn away from "the leader of the GOP"?
By the way, I have to agree with the statement of another poster who said that "There are some very very good republicans who are just normal people, many of whom believe many of the same things as moderate democrats".
By a wide margin, this is still a country of decent people who are not beholden to political extremists of the left or the right.
Both Republicans and Democrats will have to appeal to Independents to get elected. More and more voters are now identifying as Independents, largely because of their disgust with rabid partisanship by both Democrats and Republicans. I plan on identifying myself as an Independent, and I will support the candidate that I think is best for our country, looking at candidates in as objective and impartial manner as possible. I will not be shackled by blind partisanship, filled with hate between the Democrats and Republicans. If I am faced with Trump or DeSantis on the Republican side, and Biden on the Democratic side, then I have already decided I will vote for Biden. If my wife is forced to make that choice, it is likely she will refuse to vote, but she definitely will not vote for Trump or DeSantis.
The Democratic Party is, if nothing else, not the cult of trump and not the party beholden to the NRA and the ultra wealthy. It is the ONLY party that still believes in democracy and the rule of law. I will leave the last word to you guys.
“The Democratic Party is, if nothing else, not the cult of trump and not the party beholden to the NRA and the ultra wealthy. It is the ONLY party that still believes in democracy and the rule of law.”
Correct? The Democratic Party is not the cult of anyone (clinton, obama) and not the party beholden to any activist organization (AFT, ACLU etc) and they have no ultra wealthy backers (c’mon man). It is the only party that still believes in democracy and the rule of law as defined by democrats.
Both paragraphs above are nothing more than purposeful misinformation. My hope is that AI will finally put you all out of business. Many are already exercising the distortion and misuse of information especially in the political arena. If AI is abused we will all have to take the position that nothing we read or hear is believable. We are almost there and this, so called, discussion is an example.
Dude, you have lost your mind if you think I dismiss BLM violence or whatever your fantasy is; am a spokesman for Dems, or whatever your fantasy is; or don't condemn bad actors on the supposed prog side, or whatever your fantasy is. Christ, man. You also don't know what partisan actually means wrt that sentence you cite.
Anyway, done with you here. Is this from living in Texas? What is it?
Wait, lock him (Trump) up? YES. Finally, some accountability! If it wasn't for his mountain of pending lawsuits, the guy would not be running another presidential campaign. But it's his only hope for immunity.
Pivoting back to the Debt ceiling, I wonder if it moves the needle more than the pending Fed meeting (one more rate hike?).
There are certainly Moderates in both the Repugnant Party as well as the Demublican. (sic.) But given what has transpired particularly over the past several years under the Repugnant banner, anyone who is still a Republican (not Repugnant) needs to be distancing themselves from that Party. Anyone who claims to own a conscience and is still a member of the Repugnant Party has certainly stayed too long at the "party." Or else, don't be surprised that you supposedly non-crazy Republicans get tarred with the same brush as the Repugnant wingnuts. Absolutely too much unacceptable junk has transpired, connected to the Repugnant Party. That Party is no longer a Party. It is an Insurgency by now.
OK, the House passed the debt limit deal. Now it's up to the Senate. They have until June 5th, supposedly.
I expect the drama is done, now?
More opportunities for obstruction in the Senate.
crap. You mean cloture? 60-vote majority to even get something to the floor? And the filibuster is not a filibuster anymore. It takes just one guy to say NO. Silly, ridiculous.
OK, the House passed the debt limit deal. Now it's up to the Senate. They have until June 5th, supposedly.
I expect the drama is done, now?
More opportunities for obstruction in the Senate.
crap. You mean cloture? 60-vote majority to even get something to the floor? And the filibuster is not a filibuster anymore. It takes just one guy to say NO. Silly, ridiculous.
I suppose we will find out soon enough.
Senators probably have more on the line with investments,
Gee David, you and all the other guys beating off on politics doesn't have much to do with investing.
It's not my forum. I'm not responsible for moderating the standards. But I can ask.
actually, it does have to do; but my question was only about blockage
moving, sure, who cares? but why do you not want it left alone where it is? what's the harm? does it keep you from going to other threads? we're discussing the US budget
Comments
What a sad commentary on an otherwise reasonably intelligent member of the US electorate.
"...Hopefully, the more moderate factions of both parties will hold stready and relish the outcome of bipartisanship."
Keep hoping man, but in the meantime, try to keep up. MAGAts are becoming/have become the "moderate faction" of the Red party.
I'll stop there because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt given you live in Texas. I have no idea how cruel that must be.
>> use adolescent/trumpian namecalling in your posts
>> entrenched and partisan posts.
More than twice now you have trotted out your academic credentials re training in evidentiary processes and so on. You are going to have to provide some substantiation for these charges. You may have more in common with your belle than you realize.
>> Democrats have their weaknesses, and Republicans are not all rightwing insurrectionists.
Have I said this?
>> A little more "bothsidedness" would strengthen the effectiveness of your posts.
This false equivalence is weak nonsense and is the flaw in your thinking, that this is somehow a balancing process.
>> Inflexible partisanship
Again evidence. I am not and never have been a Democrat. But that's unimportant. I know evil when I see it.
You are making up a bunch of strawman arguments to support your bothsidesism.
>> is what is moving me away from my prior Democratic mindset, to more of an Independent mindset.
This can only be good!
>> If we don't find more bipartisan ways of viewing political issues,
There is no rule here, man. All that matters is the substance and the evidence. Gun controls? Women's autonomy? Equal voting rights? Carried interest? Shared public health responses? You are missing that all of these have historically had bipartisan support. What happened?
>> extreme wings of our major parties
Nope. There is only the one, honestly.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/31/opinion/politics-partisanship-delusion.html
and might seem to augment some of your wishes. I think it also, or largely, does the opposite, but I offer it for the nuances (and tracing to Fox) which it offers.
As I said, you do amuse me. The quote above is an example of your thinking that is very short sighted and very partisan. All acts of violence from rioting, that leads to murder, property destruction, crimes leading to incarceration are awful and unacceptable, and should be condemned as such. Are they all equivalent, probably not, but they are all reprehensible and should be condemned. Democratic Mayors, Democratic Governors, and even Democratic Presidents warn against all rioting that burn, loot, and kill in the name of some issue they are angry about, are condemned and warned of the consequences of their behavior. Many of these riots are permeated by a "faction" of the Democratic party, a faction that the Democrats needed to get elected. You are an outspoken speaker for the Democratic party, but you refuse to condemn these violent acts that cause devastation to cities and their citizens. You want to dismiss the actions of that faction of the Democratic Party because they are not an equivalent to the January 6 insurrection.
A less partisan point of view, would be condemning of both of these abhorrent riotous acts that have led to death, property damage, and incarceration for crimes committed in those acts. Sadly, you are unwilling to condemn that faction of the Democratic Party, but you are quick to condemn the Republican faction responsible for the Insurrection. Is one somehow forgiveable and not worthy of mentioning faction behavior, while the other is unforgiveable because it is different and you consider it more serious. Both are abhorrent, both are deserving of condemnation, and "equivalency" is not required for condemnation of both acts of violence.
Have you asked yourself, larryB, why the white working class, for example, who until recently was one of the main supporters of the Democratic Party, have largely abandoned it. They still supported Obama in 2008 and 2012, so you can't call all of them racists.
A similar trend is developing among Latinos, especially in Texas, of all places. Why? In NY City, a centrist Democrat won the last mayoral election with the overwhelming support of black voters. "Defunding the Police", for example, was not a message that resonated with most voters.
Maybe the Democratic Party has to first examine itself and its message before it can expect to attract again large numbers of decent "patriots". Appealing to tribal groups and supporting fringe issues, as it often does, is apparently not a successful formula to win elections.
IMHO, the Democrats also need to "return to something resembling what this country stands for". It's too simple just to blame the other party for lacking "decency and democratic norms", as you do.
Fred
I am repeating myself, but what is the Democratic Party offering its former supporters to entice them to return its fold, to have a reason to turn away from "the leader of the GOP"?
By the way, I have to agree with the statement of another poster who said that "There are some very very good republicans who are just normal people, many of whom believe many of the same things as moderate democrats".
By a wide margin, this is still a country of decent people who are not beholden to political extremists of the left or the right.
Enough said.
Fred
Correct? The Democratic Party is not the cult of anyone (clinton, obama) and not the party beholden to any activist organization (AFT, ACLU etc) and they have no ultra wealthy backers (c’mon man). It is the only party that still believes in democracy and the rule of law as defined by democrats.
Both paragraphs above are nothing more than purposeful misinformation. My hope is that AI will finally put you all out of business. Many are already exercising the distortion and misuse of information especially in the political arena. If AI is abused we will all have to take the position that nothing we read or hear is believable. We are almost there and this, so called, discussion is an example.
Dude, you have lost your mind if you think I dismiss BLM violence or whatever your fantasy is; am a spokesman for Dems, or whatever your fantasy is; or don't condemn bad actors on the supposed prog side, or whatever your fantasy is. Christ, man. You also don't know what partisan actually means wrt that sentence you cite.
Anyway, done with you here. Is this from living in Texas? What is it?
#NeverTrump
All the trees and bushes have been peed on well more than once.
It's not my forum. I'm not responsible for moderating the standards. But I can ask.
Pivoting back to the Debt ceiling, I wonder if it moves the needle more than the pending Fed meeting (one more rate hike?).
Senators probably have more on the line with investments,
Stay tuned.
moving, sure, who cares? but why do you not want it left alone where it is? what's the harm? does it keep you from going to other threads? we're discussing the US budget
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/2/deal-to-raise-debt-ceiling-passes-flounders-in-us