Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
Edmond said, " in this country, its the behavior which is LEGAL which is the problem. But that is a topic for some future vent, er, thread... ". I'm not sure If I'm on the same page with your last comment? I don't believe opening credit cards or other accounts is considered LEGAL ? Maybe your comment was with a grain of salt ? Unfortunately this will be swept under the carpet along with all the other crap that is long put to sleep & forgot. Derf
derf, I think you just mis-understood my intent. Allow me try to clarify:
I presume the shenanigans at WFC were IL-legal. In contrast, there are other corporate behaviors which are LEGAL which are far more injurious, with worse consequences than the IL-legal shenanigans that went on at Wells.
I guess that's the difference between me and some others. I don't do stuff which I don't think is right. It's not illegal to sleep with your neighbors wife. I just don't do it. But let's say If I did, my wife would leave me.
Now Wells Fargo can do whatever they want, legal or illegal, it does not matter. Can't get account holders to leave Wells Fargo.
There are actually more people moving to credit unions for the same reasons many posters talked about here. And it is getting the banks notice such that they want the credit unions to live under the same rules, as the banks are subjected to, i.e. Large capital reserves. During the financial crisis, credit unions did just fine, while there was fear wiith run on the banks as those during the Depression.
I'm a little miffed that PRBLX (which I hold as a large core fund position) added WFC as its #1 position recently. In terms of the fund's "governance" mandate I wonder if they'll do anything in response to this news. That decision just doesn't sit well with me.
I also have a Wells Fargo Advisors full-service account (which started off as AG Edwards > Wachovia > WF Advisors) that is doing just fine, and the team we work with is responsible, low-key, no-pressure, and, from everything we've seen in the past 10 years, earned our trust. Of course, we watch things like a hawk, but so far have been rather pleased ... and we're quite hard to please when it comes to financial services professionals.
VF: "I guess that's the difference between me and some others. I don't do stuff which I don't think is right. It's not illegal to sleep with your neighbors wife. I just don't do it. But let's say If I did, my wife would leave me.
Now Wells Fargo can do whatever they want, legal or illegal, it does not matter. Can't get account holders to leave Wells Fargo. "
Response: OK, we get it. You are a saint. If your neighbor's wife is unsatisfied, and a looker, send her my way.
As for Wells, people engage in illicit actions all the times. Sometimes they are caught and pay a penalty. That is exactly what happened with Wells.
In my state, North Carolina, where I live ... Sleeping with another man's wife is call adultery and is illegal. But, each state has different laws. In Texas, as I understand, adultery is not illegal but from my perspective and beliefs it is diffently not only bad behavior but it is conduct that breaks God's Ten Commandments regardless of where one lives.
VF: "I guess that's the difference between me and some others. I don't do stuff which I don't think is right. It's not illegal to sleep with your neighbors wife. I just don't do it. But let's say If I did, my wife would leave me.
Now Wells Fargo can do whatever they want, legal or illegal, it does not matter. Can't get account holders to leave Wells Fargo. "
Response: OK, we get it. You are a saint. If your neighbor's wife is unsatisfied, and a looker, send her my way.
As for Wells, people engage in illicit actions all the times. Sometimes they are caught and pay a penalty. That is exactly what happened with Wells.
I dunno if I'm saint. I certainly am not a hypocrite. I don't justify not doing things since it is not right to do them.
As is often the case, the "Comments" are better than the article. (you may need to enable cookies and/or register to view the comments). Kinda puts it all in perspective. And some perspective is needed. Somebody @ M* did just that.
WFC 'did wrong', a regulator penalized them with a fine. Maybe there will be follow-on consequences (i.e. clawback of bonuses, Strumpf's departure etc.). Regulators, along with the court systems dispense 'justice' every day. If WFC needs to take some more 'whacks', its all the same to me. At some point, the penalty-phase will pass. I'm a firm believer that when a criminal has paid his debt to society, it is paid. The 'damages' seem to be minor, almost trivial compared to what other businesses are permitted to do under the law...
American jobs get offshored, households get bankrupted due to medical industry pricing practices, banks 'legally' charge usurious interest rates on credit cards. Much of the American food industry engages in propanda (i.e. commercial advertising) encouraging our citizens to pursue eating habits which predictably lead to chronic cardiovascular diseases & obesity, tech companies that create legal accounting fictions which magically transport profits on a ledger from where the final-sale occured, to low-tax geographies, etc. etc. Then of course, there is the tobacco industry. All legal actions, every one. WFC generated some illicit fees. (yawn.) They are paying their fines, and remunerating those fees. I've watched enough 'Law & Order' to distinguish between felonies and misdemeanors. So far as I can tell, the severity of the damages arising from the illicit behavior seems to be misdemeanor, not felonious.
As for 'hypocrisy', VF, I've no idea what you are talking about. For those 'outraged' at WFC, its a free country, have at it. I am reserving my outrage for behavior which has rather more acute consequences -- doubly so, since corporate & industry lobbyists bribe, er 'contribute' to the political class to keep those behaviors legal.
My outrage is not against WFC. My outrage is against account holders of WFC. A majority of them can send a signal louder than the government can ever do. They can take the "trouble" of moving their assets to another bank. If they don't do it, they should not complain.
I was not born in this country, but I got here as soon as I could. It is the only country and society I know. Democracy should work in all walks of life. We can do our part at dismantling the banking oligarchy. My outrage is against all those WFC account holders who are "outraged", but still chose to do business with it. And against those who make an excuse saying "it is not so bad", or "it is not any worse than any other bank". Calling it "perspective" is simply filling up quota of writing an article on a website.
I can understand it can get hard for the common man when the choice is between a rock and hard place when it comes to banks. I'm saying we should still take it. If we don't then they have won. I understand there are congress hearings on WFC underway. More fines will do nothing. If top 5 people at Wells Fargo lose their jobs AND have to give up their golden parachutes, it will do nothing. If half of WFC account holders switch banks, THAT will go a much MUCH longer way towards preventing this sort of thing from repeating. Otherwise it is simply about cost benefit analysis for WFC who will use it as a learning experience for how to do a scam next time. Systemic issues need systematic responses. By the people.
WFC can be Blockbuster'ed and Kodak'ed. By the people, by refusing their products.
Comments
Unfortunately this will be swept under the carpet along with all the other crap that is long put to sleep & forgot.
Derf
I presume the shenanigans at WFC were IL-legal. In contrast, there are other corporate behaviors which are LEGAL which are far more injurious, with worse consequences than the IL-legal shenanigans that went on at Wells.
derf
Now Wells Fargo can do whatever they want, legal or illegal, it does not matter. Can't get account holders to leave Wells Fargo.
When is that flight to Mars, again?
I'm a little miffed that PRBLX (which I hold as a large core fund position) added WFC as its #1 position recently. In terms of the fund's "governance" mandate I wonder if they'll do anything in response to this news. That decision just doesn't sit well with me.
I also have a Wells Fargo Advisors full-service account (which started off as AG Edwards > Wachovia > WF Advisors) that is doing just fine, and the team we work with is responsible, low-key, no-pressure, and, from everything we've seen in the past 10 years, earned our trust. Of course, we watch things like a hawk, but so far have been rather pleased ... and we're quite hard to please when it comes to financial services professionals.
Now Wells Fargo can do whatever they want, legal or illegal, it does not matter. Can't get account holders to leave Wells Fargo. "
Response: OK, we get it. You are a saint. If your neighbor's wife is unsatisfied, and a looker, send her my way.
As for Wells, people engage in illicit actions all the times. Sometimes they are caught and pay a penalty. That is exactly what happened with Wells.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/4006352-wells-fargo-outrage-strategy
As is often the case, the "Comments" are better than the article. (you may need to enable cookies and/or register to view the comments). Kinda puts it all in perspective. And some perspective is needed. Somebody @ M* did just that.
http://news.morningstar.com/articlenet/article.aspx?id=769736
WFC 'did wrong', a regulator penalized them with a fine. Maybe there will be follow-on consequences (i.e. clawback of bonuses, Strumpf's departure etc.). Regulators, along with the court systems dispense 'justice' every day. If WFC needs to take some more 'whacks', its all the same to me. At some point, the penalty-phase will pass. I'm a firm believer that when a criminal has paid his debt to society, it is paid. The 'damages' seem to be minor, almost trivial compared to what other businesses are permitted to do under the law...
American jobs get offshored, households get bankrupted due to medical industry pricing practices, banks 'legally' charge usurious interest rates on credit cards. Much of the American food industry engages in propanda (i.e. commercial advertising) encouraging our citizens to pursue eating habits which predictably lead to chronic cardiovascular diseases & obesity, tech companies that create legal accounting fictions which magically transport profits on a ledger from where the final-sale occured, to low-tax geographies, etc. etc. Then of course, there is the tobacco industry. All legal actions, every one. WFC generated some illicit fees. (yawn.) They are paying their fines, and remunerating those fees. I've watched enough 'Law & Order' to distinguish between felonies and misdemeanors. So far as I can tell, the severity of the damages arising from the illicit behavior seems to be misdemeanor, not felonious.
As for 'hypocrisy', VF, I've no idea what you are talking about. For those 'outraged' at WFC, its a free country, have at it. I am reserving my outrage for behavior which has rather more acute consequences -- doubly so, since corporate & industry lobbyists bribe, er 'contribute' to the political class to keep those behaviors legal.
I was not born in this country, but I got here as soon as I could. It is the only country and society I know. Democracy should work in all walks of life. We can do our part at dismantling the banking oligarchy. My outrage is against all those WFC account holders who are "outraged", but still chose to do business with it. And against those who make an excuse saying "it is not so bad", or "it is not any worse than any other bank". Calling it "perspective" is simply filling up quota of writing an article on a website.
I can understand it can get hard for the common man when the choice is between a rock and hard place when it comes to banks. I'm saying we should still take it. If we don't then they have won. I understand there are congress hearings on WFC underway. More fines will do nothing. If top 5 people at Wells Fargo lose their jobs AND have to give up their golden parachutes, it will do nothing. If half of WFC account holders switch banks, THAT will go a much MUCH longer way towards preventing this sort of thing from repeating. Otherwise it is simply about cost benefit analysis for WFC who will use it as a learning experience for how to do a scam next time. Systemic issues need systematic responses. By the people.
WFC can be Blockbuster'ed and Kodak'ed. By the people, by refusing their products.