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Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
  • Winners/Losers over time
    Reply to @BobC: Hello. You might or might not be aware: I'm dealing directly, on a retail basis, with each fund house. TRP not long ago launched an EM bond fund in local currency. PRELX. It could be that M* is comparing it on the chart to the wrong sort of benchmarks, I dunno. Doesn't attract me, really... And I seriously am averse to jumping LATE onto any bandwagon. I hold no municipals. Doesn't seem to make sense for my situation. Unless the Congress screws it up, I'll be in the 10 or 15% bracket, and therefore won't pay tax on divs. and capital gains, anyhow.
  • Japanese Govt Targets Nikkei 13K by End of March
    So now the Japanese govt is targeting stock market levels. I remain long Japanese equities, not on a fundamental basis but on the basis of if they are going to try for monetary lunacy in an attempt to fix all their problems (and what they're doing really doesn't fix any of their major underlying problems), I'm happy to follow along.
    http://seekingalpha.com/currents/post/817881
    Forget inflation targets, Japan now has a stock market target and it's Nikkei 13K by the end of...
    Monday, February 11, 9:45 AM ET
    Forget inflation targets, Japan now has a stock market target and it's Nikkei 13K by the end of March, according to Economy and Finance minster Akira Amari. If Japan has its own David Tepper, we're pretty sure we know what he's doing. Tokyo was closed overnight, but DXJ gains 1.2%. The yen slides, FXY -0.6%.
    ___________________________
    4:52 PM A big move late in the yen (FXY -1.2% in regular trade, -0.6% AH) takes the currency to its weakest vs. the dollar in more than 2 years, the greenback now buying ¥94.32. The hedged Japan equity fund (DXJ) nods in approval, +2.4%. The Nikkei was closed Monday, but look for fireworks tonight. Earlier: The government drops all pretense and calls for Nikkei 13K by March 31. [Global & FX, On the Move] Comment!
  • Utility stock funds
    Hi Slick,
    I have owned MMUFX, the A share version and have found it to have performed to my expectations. One of the reasons I no longer hold the fund is that utilities currently make up about a triple weighting for me within my portfolio as compared to the S&P 500 Index. It is my belief that it is one of the better utility funds available and one that I’d buy again if I was looking for a utility type fund.
    Moving own to the MLP area … I recently came across a MLP open end fund that tracks the MLP Index and its ticker is ALERX. I have attached its fact sheet in case you’d like to take a closer look. It is a relative new fund so there is not much history on it. It does claim to be able to avoid the tax issues usually associated with owning MLPs directly.
    http://www.alpsalerianmlp.com/documents/pdfs/alpsalerian-fs-20121231-3.pdf
    I take it you are looking for yield along with some possible capital appreciation along the way. So are a lot of others, myself included. I wish you the very best in this search.
    Skeeter
  • Berkowitz - Fairholme(FAIRX) - The Conversion
    "So Mr. Berkowitz wants investors with more "sticky" money. And, from his comments, the implication is he wants those investors to have a substantial amount of sticky."
    John Paulson made the biggest trade in history betting against subprime. He made his investors a fortune. He then proceeded to have a couple of really, really bad years. Investors didn't care about his bet on subprime, it's really a "what have you done for me lately?" mentality that's not exclusive to retail shareholders. Obviously with a hedge fund there can be a lock-up period, but after that. In this day and age, money is more ADD (ADHD, even) than ever, which only adds to it.
    There are a ton of other examples. CGM Focus was the biggest mutual fund in all the land. People couldn't say enough good things about Heebner. Now he has a fraction of the AUM. Heebner also started a hedge fund (Wayfarer Capital, I think?) but I don't know what became of it.
    Berkowitz is not likely ending Fairholme, simply closing it to new shareholders. How much of his focus will now be on the new private fund who knows.
    Maybe this is a bizarre idea, but maybe mutual funds can offer slight fee reductions for long-term shareholders (say 5 years?)
    Otherwise, those who like Fairholme and the related funds should stay, but continue to keep an eye on things as one would any fund manager.
  • Aberdeen Emerging Markets Fund closing to new investors.
    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1413594/000110465913008659/a13-3126_4497.htm
    497 1 a13-3126_4497.htm 497
    ABERDEEN FUNDS
    Aberdeen Emerging Markets Fund
    (formerly, Aberdeen Emerging Markets Institutional Fund)
    Supplement to the Aberdeen Funds Statutory Prospectus and Statement of Additional Information, each dated February 27, 2012, as supplemented to date.
    The Board of Trustees of Aberdeen Funds (the "Board"), on behalf of its series, Aberdeen Emerging Markets Fund (formerly, Aberdeen Emerging Markets Institutional Fund) (the "Fund"), recently approved a proposal to limit inflows to the Fund in order to protect the integrity of the investment process that is used to manage the Fund. Accordingly, effective February 22, 2013 (the "Closing Date"), the Fund will no longer accept purchase orders from new investors or exchanges from other Aberdeen Funds into the Fund by new investors. However, the categories of persons described below will continue to be able to invest in the Fund:
    • Existing shareholders, as of the Closing Date, will be permitted to make new investments into the Fund directly.
    • Existing shareholders, as of the Closing Date, will be permitted to continue to purchase Fund shares through the Automatic Asset Accumulation Plan and through dividend and capital gain reinvestments.
    • Existing shareholders, as of the Closing Date, will be permitted to transfer assets from one existing account to another account within the Fund, regardless of whether such account is under a different registration or holds shares of the Fund as of the Closing Date. Such shareholders will be permitted to make new investments into such account.
    • Existing shareholders, as of the Closing Date, will be permitted to exchange shares within an existing account from one share class to another share class of the Fund, subject to any investment minimum or eligibility requirements detailed in the Fund's prospectus. Such shareholders will be permitted to make new investments into such account.
    • 401(k) plans, other qualified employee benefit plans, and firm-wide model-based investment programs, each with existing accounts in the Fund as of the Closing Date, will be permitted to purchase additional shares in the Fund.
    • Financial intermediaries trading in an omnibus structure that currently have accounts in the Fund or that convert fully disclosed accounts to an omnibus structure will be permitted to purchase additional shares in the Fund on behalf of existing or new clients or customers.
    Existing shareholders, as of the Closing Date, who later sell all of their shares of the Fund will not be permitted to establish new accounts or reinvest in the Fund. In addition, the Fund reserves the right to accept purchases from institutions that have notified the Fund's adviser or distributor of their intent to invest in the Fund prior to the Closing Date, regardless of whether such institutions hold shares of the Fund as of the Closing Date. The Fund's Board, and officers and employees of the Fund's adviser and its affiliates, will not be permitted to purchase additional shares in the Fund after the Closing Date unless such investment is through a permitted channel (i.e., 401(k) plan). The Fund reserves the right to accept purchases from the Aberdeen Multi-Asset Allocation Funds, regardless of whether such funds hold shares of the Fund as of the Closing Date. The Fund reserves the right to accept investments transferred from other Aberdeen emerging markets vehicles at its discretion.
    The Fund will continue to limit inflows to the Fund until otherwise notified.
    Effective upon the Closing Date, the prospectus of the Fund is supplemented by modifying all references to the ability to purchase shares of the Fund as set forth in this Supplement.
    Please retain this Supplement for future reference.
    THIS SUPPLEMENT IS DATED FEBRUARY 8, 2013.
  • Jeff Auxier
    "The power of compounding is so phenomenal that a long-term investor should strive to avoid losses that interrupt the process. We did not believe the Federal Reserve would instigate an $85 billion a month bond buying campaign, dubbed “unlimited QE,” that’s focused on the unemployment level. Allocating roughly a trillion dollars at today’s record-high bond prices makes no sense. Excessive borrowing to buy wildly overpriced assets are common causes of capital destruction. Misallocation based on extremely easy credit has contributed materially to the two major market declines in the past 12 years. This past year the mindless rush for yield drove investors into the danger zone once again. “Stretching for yield” without understanding the source or true risk for yield contributed to the financial crisis in 2008. This year, across the globe, total central bank stimulus could exceed $8 trillion. This is unprecedented, can’t be ignored, and provides a powerful but artificial tailwind for equities."
    Exactly. Very impressive performance and compelling fund, as well.
  • Jeff Auxier
    Mr. Auxier runs Auxier Focus Investor AUXFX.
    Link to his latest quarterly report:
    http://auxierasset.com/2012/12/31/auxier-report-year-end-2012/
    Since 1999, this guy knows how to control risk and still beat the market:
    image
    Down side and draw down deviations 7.4% and 8.6%, respectively, through end of last year.
    He also initiated an institutional share class last year with a bit better ER of 1.1 for $250K min versus 1.25 for investor class. Auxier AUM is currently $270M, up from $147M when David first profiled AUXFX a couple years back, now archived.
    From Mr. Auxier's latest commentary:
    The power of compounding is so phenomenal that a long-term investor should strive to avoid losses that interrupt the process. We did not believe the Federal Reserve would instigate an $85 billion a month bond buying campaign, dubbed “unlimited QE,” that’s focused on the unemployment level. Allocating roughly a trillion dollars at today’s record-high bond prices makes no sense. Excessive borrowing to buy wildly overpriced assets are common causes of capital destruction. Misallocation based on extremely easy credit has contributed materially to the two major market declines in the past 12 years. This past year the mindless rush for yield drove investors into the danger zone once again. “Stretching for yield” without understanding the source or true risk for yield contributed to the financial crisis in 2008. This year, across the globe, total central bank stimulus could exceed $8 trillion. This is unprecedented, can’t be ignored, and provides a powerful but artificial tailwind for equities.
    Prospective investors in the Fund often ask why we steadfastly avoid such high-profile tech stocks as Apple and Facebook that dominate coverage on CNBC and other financial media. Our answer is that we prefer to own comparatively mundane businesses like Unilever and Tesco PLC that actually have benefited from technology’s inexorable march toward lower unit prices and profit margins.
    And from David's original profile:
    Management’s Stake in the Fund: rather more than $2,000,000. Mr. Auxier reports investing his entire personal retirement into the fund and has committed to never selling a single share while he still manages the fund. The company reports that “everymember of the Auxier team has significant percentages of their personal net worth invested in the Auxier Focus Fund.”
  • Junk Bond Fund Decoupling From Stocks
    I've been in this battle in other forums since like forever so why not here. The charts of the junk bond ETFs ala HYG or JNK do not tell the real story because they are not total return charts and omit the most important ingredient of the junk bond markets and that is dividends. In the real world, junk bond funds have been hitting all times on a regular basis since August 2009. You would never know that looking at JNK or HYG. In fact, while the Dow and S&P have yet to take out their pre crash highs 2007/08 or for that matter the charts of JNK and HYG, in reality junk bonds have exceeded theirs (pre crash highs) by some 60%. So if anything, stocks have really lagged junk bonds.
    The proxy for the junk bond market is the Merrill Lynch High Yield Master II Index and it is a total return chart. Compare that chart with JNK and HYG and it's a completely different picture.
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BAMLHYH0A0HYM2TRIV/
    Another example of junk bond charts. Take a gander at Vanguard's VWEHX. It was offered in December 78 or December 79 (can't recall exactly offhand) at $10. Looking at the chart you would think junk bonds are the worst investment around as the chart has been in a protracted downtrend since its offering. Yet in the real world you have have compounded your capital at around 8%+ per annum.
    As for junk bonds now, not only are they overpriced, they are insanely overpriced. I would love to see a severe correction to right the ship. But as we know, insanely overpriced markets can stay that way for longer than expected, so who knows. Surely not I.
  • Elevator Talk #1: Tom Kerr, Rocky Peak Small Cap Value (RPCSX)
    Absolutely love the Bronte Capital post.
    If you buy weight loss shakes from GNC you do not get the gold stars.
    And,
    Bill Ackman's thesis is the most easily falsified bear-thesis I have seen from a major hedge fund ever.
    Piercing stuff on Mr. Ackman, if it's true.
    Thanks man.
  • David Snowball's three funds over the long haul
    Hi David,
    At one point, you did suggest a three fund portfolio of First Trust/Aberdeen Emerging (FEO), T. Rowe Price Capital Appreciation (PRWCX) and T. Rowe Price Spectrum Income (RPSIX) which I tracked as a portfolio on Morningstar. Starting with 1/3 in each on 1/1/2008 would have gotten you an annualized return of 8.6 % since inception, compared to 2.9% for the S&P 500. The current balance is 40% FEO and 30% in each of the other two. Maximum down year was 2008 with -26%, compared to -37% for the S&P 500.
    Pretty nice!
    Cheers,
    lrwilliams
  • David Snowball's three funds over the long haul
    Hi David,
    FPACX is FPA Crescent fund. Do you have it or you have FPA Capital fund ?
    Also, Trow price strategic income fund ticker is PRSNX, not RPSIX, which is Spectrum Income fund. You have an interesting asset allocation.
    Thanks,
    Mrc
  • David Snowball's three funds over the long haul
    It's been vexing me for a long while now, which is why I haven't said much.
    In general, I think a long-term holding needs to minimize manager risk and to accord a fair degree of flexibility to the manager. That is, I'd be reluctant to box someone tightly in. Beyond that, it needs to be as inexpensive as possible.
    Beyond that, I think that the fund would have a fair and opportunistic exposure to growth drivers; that is, the ability to expertly harness things that demographic changes favoring the emerging markets or the prospect of tens of trillions in infrastructure spending. It's tough to have broad enough expertise, though, to do more than dabble dangerously in some of those niches.
    So probably a tactical allocation sort of fund (mostly stocks with the opportunity to invest elsewhere), a strategic income fund (mostly fixed-income with the opportunity to invest elsewhere) and an emerging markets balanced fund (mostly e.m. equities with the opportunity to invest elsewhere, increasingly called "multi-asset" funds).
    For what interest it holds, here's what I actually own:
    Northern Global Tactical Asset Allocation (BBALX) - a very low-cost fund of index funds with a tactical overlay.
    FPA Crescent (FPACX) - a reasonably low-cost fund whose manager famously roams over the world's capital markets, investing (successfully) here and there, in equity, debt and alternatives.
    Matthews Asia Strategic Income (MAINX) - a reasonably low-cost package of Asian fixed-income with a dash of equities, managed by one of the bright younger stars in the best Asian manager.
    T. Rowe Price Spectrum Income (RPSIX) - a low-cost fund of actively managed, income-oriented funds which offers a broad basket of global fixed-income funds with a dash (up to 20%) in dividend-paying equities.
    Seafarer Overseas Growth & Income (SFGIX) - an Asia-centric, equity-centric emerging markets fund that diversifies outside of Asia, outside of equities and even outside of the emerging markets.
    Matthews Asian Growth & Income (MACSX) - the Asia-only version of Seafarer.
    I also have owned two Artisan funds from about the day they opened (Artisan Small Cap Value, Artisan International Value) and one cash-management fund (RiverPark Short-Term High Yield).
    The collection is currently about 60% stocks, 15% cash, 15% bonds, 10% other. That's my non-retirement portfolio. The allocation is a bit risky for something with an indeterminate time horizon, but the managers are - on whole - really quite risk conscious so I've been happy.
    For what interest it holds,
    David
  • Berkowitz Seeking Patient Capital Sours On Mutual Funds
    Reply to @scott: i agree that partnership (i.e. hedge fund) will give hime 'somewhat' more patient capital, but no assurances. let's say that he'll institute a one-year lock up with quarterly redemptions thereafter. even with this model, after a really bad year, he'll have most investors alligned for the first available redemption date. He might of course impose a gate, but this will not win him investors either.
  • Berkowitz Seeking Patient Capital Sours On Mutual Funds
    It's not that he's not going to manage mutual funds, but this:
    -------------------
    Berkowitz is raising money for a partnership that takes minimum investments of $1 million, according to a January regulatory filing. He declined to elaborate when asked whether the new entity was meant to attract more patient capital.
    “At this point, I can’t talk about it,” he said. “But stay tuned.”
    ---------------------
    I still think it's amusing that he believes more money invested = more patient capital. Totally and completely incorrect. I do think if he starts up a large hedge fund, that's potentially time and attention taken away from the mutual funds. Maybe the funds were suddenly closed in order to limit size because there will be other fund/s Berkowitz is going to be focusing on?
    He could do a London fund (see also Daniel Loeb and soon Bill Ackman) or do a reinsurance co (see Einhorn, Loeb, SAC). Those two methods are better ways to get permanent capital. Greenlight Reinsurance hasn't done all that well lately, but it succeeded in getting David Einhorn's goal of permanent capital.
    Otherwise, interesting that Fairholme (FAIRX) has gotten even more concentrated. "More than 80 percent of the Fairholme Fund’s assets were invested in six companies as of Nov. 30. In addition to AIG and Bank of America, holdings include a 13 percent stake in Sears Holdings Corp. (SHLD) and 25 percent of real-estate developer St. Joe Co., the largest private landowner in northwest Florida, data compiled by Bloomberg show."
  • Dan Fuss - Bonds most overbought he's ever seen
    Reply to @MikeM: Hi MikeM. 4-5 years ago we decided to use a 50/50 mix of domestic bonds to international bonds. This obviously was a lucky guess, since those non-U.S. bonds have been real winners. The only problem was that domestic bond managers have been increasing their non-U.S. holdings, too, so we started seeing a real over-allocation to those bonds last year.
    We have used alternatives over the last few years to reduce our equity risk. But we are now moving more dollars to equities and capturing bond gains, moving those dollars to alternatives. Personally, I think EM bonds have a lot of attraction. We have used TGBAX and GSDIX for our foreign bond allocation, but are moving more dollars to GSDIX for committed non-dollar exposure. TGBAX has always owned non-dollar bonds, but we want to have some dedicated exposure there.
    So our overall bond allocation remains about 50/50 domestic and foreign, but still tilted a bit toward foreign bonds. We are ramping up our purchase of LASYX, which is essentially a long-short bond fund with very strong management. It's a newer fund, but the Loomis folks running it (Eagan, Kearns, Vandam) seem to have found a good strategy. It could be a good buffer as interest rates move higher.
    So, ikn answer to your questions: 1) Overall domestic/foreign allocation is around the same at 50/50. 2) Starting to move dollars from bond funds to alternatives and to be sure our domestic bond exposure is in flexible-mandate funds. Using alternatives to hedge our fixed-income allocation, instead of hedging our equities.
  • Elevator Talk #1: Tom Kerr, Rocky Peak Small Cap Value (RPCSX)

    I like the "Elevator Talk" addition David.
    A peek at Rocky Peak's recent holdings shows Radio Shack RSH, which Scott and I have been posting about lately - it has rebounded an extraordinary 50% YTD:
    image
    So, of course, I had to look a little further into RPCSX.
    The small cap fund category has several notables - many favorites on MFO, like ARIVX, RYSEX, PVFIX, MSCFX, ARTVX, HUSIX. So, a tough group to get noticed in, especially given the modest returns RPCSX has delivered out of the gate since inception last April...but it has had its moments.
    Morningstar shows 578 US small caps, or about 6.5% of all funds, oldest share class only, as of Dec 2012. Their caps average from $50M to $3B. (There are 43 so-called micro caps included with average caps under $500M.) Here's further break-out of small cap demographic:
    image
    RPCSX holds 42 equities, as of Sept 2012, fairly evenly distributed across its portfolio at 1.5-3% each, with average market capitalization of $1.1B.
    Another of its holdings, Duff & Phelps Financial DUF, announced a going private transaction on the last trading day of the year - the stock jumped 20% :
    image

    Before that, Mr. Kerr reported that another holding, CoreLogic (CLGX), a So Cal provider of real estate data, rose 44.9% in the third quarter. He sold the position after achieving a 62.3% gain from purchase, explaining the rapid price appreciation "exceeded our conservative calculation of intrinsic value..."
    More recently, he's added Herbalife, which Dan Loeb's Third Point hedge fund also bought 9 million shares, or 8% of the company. (Loeb's long position runs counter to the massive short put on by Bill Ackman's Pershing Square.)
    On its website, Mr. Kerr provides monthly updates and commentary, along with descriptions of how he invests and his guiding principles for RPCSX. Here are some takeaways:

    Rocky Peak Capital Management strives to optimize long-term returns with a focus on mitigating risk.
    Downside risk is often considered one of the most crucial elements of stock selection. You win in both investing and sports by avoiding frequent and big mistakes.
    Most of our research is done internally, free of Wall Street biases and short-term focus.
    To quote legendary investor Sir John Templeton, "To buy when others are despondently selling and to sell when others are greedily buying requires the greatest fortitude yet pays the greatest reward."
    We will not chase the popular or fashionable investing trend of the day.
    A long-term time horizon...a minimum of two to three years is required to recognize the performance benefits of this style of investing.
    We are candid about our mistakes as well as our successes and speak in plain language instead of confusing financial jargon.

    Since inception last year, RPCSX has out-performed some seriously good and high lifetime performing funds, like gold-star Perkins Small Cap Value JSIVX, FMI Focus FMIOX, Conestoga Small Cap CCASX, Royce Micro-Cap Invmt RYOTX, Turner Emerging Growth Investor TMCGX, and gold-star Artisan Small Cap Value Investor ARTVX:
    image
    But it well under-performed others, depicted below, like Walthausen Small Cap Value WSCVX, Mairs & Power Small Cap MSCFX (on fire Max), Huber Capital Small Cap Value Inv HUSIX, TETON Westwood Mighty Mites AAA WEMMX, Pinnacle Value PVFIX. (It has just about broken even with its small value benchmark.)
    image
    As Mr. Kerr states, eight-nine months is hardly enough life to make a performance assessment of RPCSX. But in that time, the fund upheld its promise to minimize down side and draw down risk. The fund he previously co-managed, now called Core Street Capital (CSC) Small Cap Value Investor CSCSX, produced high life-time risk adjust returns returns based on Sharpe (in top 20% of more than 100 small caps between 12 and 15 years old), but with fairly high down-side volatility. By the numbers, since Oct 1998: 10.5% APR, but 13.4% DSDEV and (gulp) 18.8% Ulcer Index, which resulted in 47% draw down in 2008. For me at least, I hope Mr. Kerr does indeed correct "mistakes that my former colleagues and I made such as not making general or tactical stock market calls, or not holding overvalued stocks just because they are perceived to be great quality companies."
    If RPCSX does manage to keep its down side in check going forward, here are some of the lower volatility, no-load small cap funds (with attendant performance and risk) that I believe Rocky Peak will ultimately be compared against, oldest to youngest:
    image
    In any case, for now at least, I am adding Rocky Peak RPCSX to the notable list.

  • Like I figured...
    Hi rono,
    Thanks for stopping by.
    I am thinking many on the sidelines will be drawn in feeling they are being left behind. Heck, from my thoughts, the train left the station about three years ago. I've played the upward movement with some selling along the way and then redeployment of some capital during the pull backs. Once the smart money figures the dumb money has join the party ... They will be leaving just to buy back in at lower valuations and those that just joined the party will get fleeced as a down draft developes and margin calls begin for those that leveraged. Anyway, that is how I see it ... and, that's why I have been selling into what I beleive to be a near term overbought market. Rally on, I am making good money.
    Good to hear from you.
    Skeeter
  • Is the DoubleLine Floating Rate Fund closed?
    http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1480207/000119312513033926/d440347d497.htm
    497 1 d440347d497.htm DOUBLELINE FLOATING RATE FUND
    DoubleLine Funds Trust
    DoubleLine Floating Rate Fund
    Supplement dated February 1, 2013 to the Prospectus for Class I and Class N shares of
    DoubleLine Floating Rate Fund (the “Fund”) dated February 1, 2013
    This Supplement updates certain information contained in the above-dated Prospectus. Please review this important information carefully.
    Shares of the Fund are only available for purchase by advisory clients of DoubleLine Capital LP (“DoubleLine Capital”) and its affiliates; employees and officers of DoubleLine Capital and its affiliates and their family members; and DoubleLine Capital and its affiliates. One or more of the Fund’s investors may control the Fund. A shareholder who beneficially owns 25% or more of the Fund is presumed to control the Fund. Persons controlling the Fund may be able to determine the outcome of any proposal submitted to the shareholders for approval.
    INVESTORS SHOULD RETAIN THIS SUPPLEMENT WITH THE PROSPECTUS FOR FUTURE REFERENCE.
    DLFRFPROSUP
  • Fairholme Funds suspends/ceases selling shares in its funds to new investors.
    Reply to @mns: Ackman's fund is going to IPO on the London Market, it would appear.
    http://www.valuewalk.com/2013/01/pershing-square-capitalizes-new-hedge-fund-with-over-1b-ahead-of-ipo/
    Third Point (Dan Loeb) is another large hedge fund that has a London listing, although the shares have traded at enormous discounts to NAV at times.
    Greenlight, Third Point and SAC have started up reinsurance companies whose floats are invested in the same manner as the hedge funds in order to get permanent capital, but only one - Greenlight - is public, and the reinsurance side of it continues to lag.