Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
Great fastball throwing pitcher for his time. Part of an awesome Tiger rotation in the 60s. I'd feel better if he hadn't made some "awkward" remarks, like about Justice Ginsburg, in later life. Keep in mind, however, that AL pitchers batted during his day and head protection wasn't yet required. http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/19478314/hall-fame-pitcher-jim-bunning-dies-age-85
"He declared that athletes who use steroids should be kept out of the Baseball Hall of Fame and have their records nullified. He co-authored legislation calling for stiff punishment for professional athletes caught using steroids. The proposal, which sought a lifetime ban for a third positive test, would have applied to baseball, football, basketball and hockey players."
It is getter harder and harder to differentiate the accomplishments of today's athletes as compared to someone like Bunning!
"While many assume that the reason for banning these substances is purely because of the competitive advantage they can give one over another athlete, that is simply not the case. Indeed, were steroids not harmful it is likely that every athlete would use them and the playing field would, effectively, remain level. But, the health concerns created by steroid use led to their inclusion on the schedules of controlled substances. As a result, only those who violate the law are able to use these substances for athletic purposes, and the advantage truly is unfair. Thus, they were also banned from sports." https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31371
Admittedly a matter of opinion, but one that I share. All sports make changes so that the performers seem faster, stronger, better. That is, make for a better show.
He pitched before relief pitchers, let alone closers, were commonly used. These days, it's 5 or 6 innings and out. Baseball has a reputation for being easier than other sports to compare today's performers with those of earlier eras. Still much has changed since 1968 when the top AL batting average was .301 (Yaz). That's not all due to steroids.
Somewhat confusing, for me anyway; so Mickey Mantle, who played a large % percentage of his career under the influence of alcohol was on the same "level playing field" as Barry Bonds (post Pittsburgh)??? Their accomplishments are the same???
I wouldn't put Bunning on the same level as Mantle whom I admired for many reasons. As I recall, he could do it all. And, he was very open later in life about his alcohol abuse - no doubt helping many. As an aside, we know so much more about alcohol addiction today than people knew in the 50s and 60s when Mantle was young.
Re: Bunning. I suspect his numbers pale in comparison to more recent athletes. Keep in mind that in his time a starter had "failed" if he didn't go at least 8.5 innings. The word "closer" wasn't yet common in baseball vocabulary (as msf has already articulated)
@msf - I'd guess Mantle with his strong throwing arm was called in to close out at least one game at some point during his illustrious career. Does your deep bank of records/statistics so confirm?
@Hank You are correct on both fronts. Mantle, basically, publicly "apologized" for "wasting" a God given talent by succumbing to the temptations of life! Mantle was Mike Trout long before Mike Trout's parents got busy one night! Mantle's atonement probably affected more than he ever realized! The differences in the way starting pitchers and bullpens are used today are night and day! Just ask Goose Gossage about the way "closers" are only asked to get 3 out's today! Baseball teams, and bullpens, are built today to hopefully get 6 innings out of the starter and then turn the game over to the bullpen... hopefully allowing the closer to get a 3 out save! Enjoy your weekend!
I wouldn't know about Mantle pitching or not, though the few times I've seen a fielder put in to pitch seems to have been as a lark - team way behind and pitching staff needing some rest.
"[Bobby] Murcer was hailed as another Mantle when he emerged from the Yankees' system in the mid-1960s. Both players were signed out of Oklahoma as shortstops by the same scout, Tom Greenwade, prompting comparisons. " http://m.mlb.com/news/article/3120888//
@msf I had the 1977 Minnesota Twins in a cards and dice baseball league at high school in 1978. Great hitting but terrible pitching made for exciting games!
Here's a link which should take you to a list of ML position players who have pitched in ML games. Clicking "more items" pulls up a pretty full discussion of the whys, where's, and how's for each instance.
It's not that uncommon. A nut-case like Billy Martin might have done it as a lark. More often there's a good reason. Sometimes pitching rotations and bullpens become over-taxed due to scheduling or other problems (like playing several extra-inning games over a short period). So if a position player has a good arm he may be called in in later innings to take some of the work off the regular pitching staff. Yup - more often than not it's in a lopsided game. Can also happen late in a very long game where every single pitcher has seen service and there's no one else left to put in.
Comments
It is getter harder and harder to differentiate the accomplishments of today's athletes as compared to someone like Bunning!
https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=31371
Admittedly a matter of opinion, but one that I share. All sports make changes so that the performers seem faster, stronger, better. That is, make for a better show.
Bunning never had to face DHs. On the other hand, he (like his peers) was able to throw at batters without worrying about getting tossed from the game.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/27/sports/baseball/jim-bunning-hall-of-fame-pitcher-and-blunt-spoken-senator-dies-at-85.html
He pitched before relief pitchers, let alone closers, were commonly used. These days, it's 5 or 6 innings and out. Baseball has a reputation for being easier than other sports to compare today's performers with those of earlier eras. Still much has changed since 1968 when the top AL batting average was .301 (Yaz). That's not all due to steroids.
Re: Bunning. I suspect his numbers pale in comparison to more recent athletes. Keep in mind that in his time a starter had "failed" if he didn't go at least 8.5 innings. The word "closer" wasn't yet common in baseball vocabulary (as msf has already articulated)
@msf - I'd guess Mantle with his strong throwing arm was called in to close out at least one game at some point during his illustrious career. Does your deep bank of records/statistics so confirm?
You are correct on both fronts. Mantle, basically, publicly "apologized" for "wasting" a God given talent by succumbing to the temptations of life! Mantle was Mike Trout long before Mike Trout's parents got busy one night! Mantle's atonement probably affected more than he ever realized!
The differences in the way starting pitchers and bullpens are used today are night and day! Just ask Goose Gossage about the way "closers" are only asked to get 3 out's today! Baseball teams, and bullpens, are built today to hopefully get 6 innings out of the starter and then turn the game over to the bullpen... hopefully allowing the closer to get a 3 out save!
Enjoy your weekend!
Powerful stuff!!!
He did appear in 7 games at shortstop, including 1 start.
Glad to stand corrected.
@carew388, I really like your handle.
"[Bobby] Murcer was hailed as another Mantle when he emerged from the Yankees' system in the mid-1960s. Both players were signed out of Oklahoma as shortstops by the same scout, Tom Greenwade, prompting comparisons. "
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/3120888//
I had the 1977 Minnesota Twins in a cards and dice baseball league at high school in 1978. Great hitting but terrible pitching made for exciting games!
It's not that uncommon. A nut-case like Billy Martin might have done it as a lark. More often there's a good reason. Sometimes pitching rotations and bullpens become over-taxed due to scheduling or other problems (like playing several extra-inning games over a short period). So if a position player has a good arm he may be called in in later innings to take some of the work off the regular pitching staff. Yup - more often than not it's in a lopsided game. Can also happen late in a very long game where every single pitcher has seen service and there's no one else left to put in.
goo.gl/lZCLwQ
Need more practice shortening links. Here's the whole #!*+#! thing. Worth a look if you love baseball.
https://www.google.com/search?sclient=tablet-gws&site=&source=hp&q=position+players+who+have+pitched+in+major+leagues&oq=position+players+who+have+pitched+in+major+leagues&gs_l=tablet-gws.12...6528.53439.0.54270.124.94.1.0.0.0.982.7524.4-4j3j4.11.0....0...1.1.64.tablet-gws..116.4.1440...0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20k1j30i10k1.s4rw2b8y-_4