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Why buy the S&P 500?

edited October 26 in Fund Discussions
I was looking at our taxable accounts, and noticing the returns on our various tech-sector funds, and so I asked myself, why even buy the S&P 500 these days--not that I am actually in the market for adding much of anything to the taxable at this point.

If I was 20-30 years younger, why not just buy a tech fund--or four in the case of my taxable (because I like baskets)--and rearrange the rest of the deck chairs to suit my druthers, i.e., risk tolerance?



Comments

  • edited October 26
    The Market's been rising and rising. Until it doesn't, but that should not surprise anyone when it happens. The cycle happens over and over. I recall that the lion's share of the profits and moneymaking in the SP500 is severely concentrated at the top, in the MAG7. Right? My mutual funds own the big, shiny, famous names.

    That's why with my (slowly growing) taxable account, where I play with lots less money and choose single stocks, I search and dig to find unknown names that are actually great companies, carrying much lower P/E ratios. Because I like dividends, I am often in banks--- banks that are off everyone's radar. Just lately I took a tiny toe-hold into a Singapore-specific ETF with the ticker, EWS. (iShares, BlackRock.) Selecting that ex-USA new holding was strategic. The rest of the world has seen the erratic political and economic behavior out of Washington, and they are looking to build compacts with each other and bypassing the U.S. ...Canada is/was our 2nd-biggest trading partner, but it sure looks as if that's not going to hold for long.
  • I never got the itch to buy individual stocks.
  • Only fortunate because I know it would drive me crazy obsessing over every detail all the time. So I'm not as crazy as I could be.:-D

    I bought SMH for the taxable in February 2024 when some poster here was talking about chips. So I put a few bucks down. And zowie! I already had TDIV, FSCSX, and CSGZX.

    So it keeps me comfortable owning my old fogies like DODGX, SEQUX, VEIRX, FSMEX, and POSKX; plus the fliers on FMIMX, GLFOX, RWJ, VSMIX, etc.

    There are some duds mixed in there too. I'll be rearranging those deck chairs overboard in the near future.

    If you already have tech, why buy the rest of the S&P 500 willy nilly when you could focus on SPHQ or SPGP?
  • edited October 27
    I have an advisor friend who started in the mid 90's. He said after the dot com bubble people were sheepish on tech sector for a good while, and before they really got a taste for it again, the great recession happened. For example the Q's maintained a very meager AUM 10 years after the dot come bubble. it took quite a while to recoup (2014ish) and it took a while for people to begin to invest in tech again. which when you look at the chart today you go well if they'd of just held on! but tech killed their portfolios in the dot com bubble. then banking system as we knew it failed 6-7 years later which once again gave everyone pause.

    I know a guy i went to college with who says he held onto the rydex nasdaq100 and fidelity select tech through out (imo its tall tales out of school) and maybe he did but thats a makeup most people don't/didn't have. LOTS of people in their late 20's and 30's with tech portfolios who have had it work for them quite a bit.

    so the answer is ultimately risk. I sometimes ask this question to the young coworkers who ask a similar question. why not just tech, why not 3Xtech?

    I do believe technology itself will likely lessen the time it takes from peak to peak in a recession. I have no evidence of this outside of the v shape recoveries we've experienced in the past handful of years. I feel like these would of drawn out longer 20-30 years ago.
  • edited October 27
    My SIL has been buying 50/50 VOO/QQQ for years now. He can already retire.

    In the early 1990s, a good friend invested in ten individual stocks, putting about $3,000 into each. The rest of his monthly contributions went into the S&P 500.
    Nine of those stocks didn’t amount to much — but the tenth, Microsoft, grew into more than $1.5 million.
  • FD1000 said:

    My SIL has been buying 50/50 VOO/QQQ for years now. He can already retire.

    In the early 1990s, a good friend invested in ten individual stocks, putting about $3,000 into each. The rest of his monthly contributions went into the S&P 500.
    Nine of those stocks didn’t amount to much — but the tenth, Microsoft, grew into more than $1.5 million.

    VOO and QQQ (or QQQM) are the only funds I would purchase. Very liquid, low expense ratios, low frictional costs, and ample diversification. Active management is nonsense in my opinion.

  • edited November 1
    masterd said:

    VOO and QQQ (or QQQM) are the only funds I would purchase.
    Very liquid, low expense ratios, low frictional costs, and ample diversification.
    Active management is nonsense in my opinion.

    Passive funds like VOO and QQQ are tough to beat for investors
    who are primarily interested in the highest U.S. large-cap returns¹.
    Investors may realize higher success rates for actively managed funds
    in other categories like bonds (broadly speaking) or emerging market equities.


    ¹ Some investors deliberately select less risky large-cap funds.
  • edited November 2

    masterd said:

    VOO and QQQ (or QQQM) are the only funds I would purchase.
    Very liquid, low expense ratios, low frictional costs, and ample diversification.
    Active management is nonsense in my opinion.

    Passive funds like VOO and QQQ are tough to beat for investors
    who are primarily interested in the highest U.S. large-cap returns¹.
    Investors may realize higher success rates for actively managed funds
    in other categories like bonds (broadly speaking) or emerging market equities.


    ¹ Some investors deliberately select less risky large-cap funds.
    Tech has been tough to beat over the last ten and fifteen year periods. So QQQ has been tough to beat outside a tech sector fund.

    However, if you were the buy and hold type, there was a window five years ago where you could have picked up a number of funds that are still beating QQQ despite everything since then. Just for fun, I'll mention three small-cap value funds: VSMIX 26.05, BSCRX 21.65, and RWJ 19.72 to 19.21 for QQQ.

    Will those funds maintain their leads? Who can say? Sometimes it helps to get lucky. If you had bought DODGX, VFINX, and QQQ on March 24, 2000, your investment in DODGX would have grown by 1024% to 598% for VFINX and 534% for QQQ.

    March 24, 2000 was the day the S&P 500 peaked before the bust--if Perplexity can be believed. Let's try March 31, 1999, QQQ's first day. Since then, DODGX 1,168%, QQQ 1311%, and VFINX 739%. As with comedy, timing is everything.

    VOO ain't what it used to be. Actively managed BBLU has been beating it for fifteen years with less tech and less volatility. Tech-heavy funds like FELG and SCHG also beat it.

    Over the last five years it has become rather easy to beat. Just the other day I bought EISIX, which has been beating it for five years; so have BSCRX, AICFX, and AFIFX for that matter. Then there are any number of growth-oriented funds that are doing it.

    But what if I had bought VOO and VSMIX five years ago, and continued to invest 100.00$ a month since then. I would guess that the day you actually bought would make some difference. But I'm not going to parse that when Portfolio Visualizer can get me close enough--dinky linky. For those that don't follow links, you would have 44K in VSMIX to 32K in VOO. The worst year for VSMIX was +4.58 versus -18.19 for VOO. Will VOO catch up to VSMIX some day? Maybe. Stay tuned.

    Forgot to include QQQ in the previous scenario. Here you go. DFL: VSMIX still winning.

    Buy tech? Absolutely. Buy the S&P 500? If it floats your boat, why not?
  • they key is pinpointing these funds ahead of time and capturing the upside. these funds exist in batches of other funds with similar performance/metrics for a specific period of time.

    A financial advisor about 5 years ago published a list of mutual funds with a longtime track record of 12% or more returns and that had a very positive previous 10 years. He was very much like see Dave Ramsey was right this is easy! someone looked at those funds 5 years later and did a memorandum. only 12% of those funds (most sector and large growth) beat the sp500. And it was a very popular post in Dave Ramsey circles which tells me tons of people likely built their portfolios around them.

    lots of people have caught lightning in a bottle and captured the upside of funds like AIVSX/DODGX as a result of their proliferation in retirement plans.

    But timing is everything and I think morningstar stated that most equity mutual funds show Investor return to be less than NAV return over 3-15 yr periods because people buy funds when they've already captured much of the upside over those periods.
  • edited November 3
    "But timing is everything and I think morningstar stated that most equity mutual funds
    show Investor return to be less than NAV return over 3-15 yr periods because people
    buy funds when they've already captured much of the upside over those periods."


    I believe you are referring to Morningstar's annual Mind the Gap study.

    "We estimate the average dollar invested in US mutual funds and exchange-traded funds
    earned 7.0% per year over the decade ended Dec. 31, 2024.
    That estimate, which is akin to an internal rate of return calculation,
    accounts for investors’ purchases and sales of fund shares during that 10-year period."

    "The 7.0% annual dollar-weighted return is about 1.2 percentage points per year
    less than these funds’ 8.2% aggregate annual total return
    (which assumes an initial lump-sum purchase) over the 10 years ended Dec. 31, 2024.
    That 'gap' is explained by the timing and magnitude of investors’ transactions during the period."

    https://www.morningstar.com/financial-advisors/volatility-bedevils-fund-investors
  • har, the best, FXAIX, is nowhere mentioned
  • the best, FXAIX

    The best for you and undeniably one of the best. But simply the best, better than all the rest?



    ETFs offer greater accessibility at possibly lower trading cost (bid/ask spread vs. TF at many non-Fidelity brokerages). Institutional investors and traders may have difficulty using FXAIX with its restriction of two round trips within 90 days (trading rights are suspended if this is exceeded).

    In terms of raw performance, FXAIX is arguably not even the best. Fidelity's Flex fund FDFIX, used by Fidelity's robo advisor, has a better 5 year return (it hasn't been around for 10 years yet). On the DIY front, USPRX ($100K min) has a better 10 year return. Though technically not an S&P 500 fund, Lipper includes it in its S&P500 index category.

    Different strokes for different folks. "Best" here can be mathematically quantified by constructing an "objective" function that measures how good a fund is. But each person's priorities translate into different objective functions.
  • Tina was simply the BEST in my opinion.

    As for S&P 500 funds I don't/didn't have time to suss out all the various idiosyncrasies of all the options available and just went with FXAIX in my Roth and XLG in my taxable account until I change my mind.
  • Given the massive run up and the high PE etc ratios, I would not expect the SP500 to do much over the next ten years. that is certainly what has happened historically. It was dead in the water for up to 13 years or more after 1998

    Much better to diversify into cheaper stuff or RSP. Lots of other things went up. Trees do not grow to the sky
  • Concur. RWL is another possibility that focus on the company’s revenue. It has 9.4% exposure to tech sector versus the 31% of that in S&P500 index.
  • Sven said:

    Concur. RWL is another possibility that focus on the company’s revenue. It has 9.4% exposure to tech sector versus the 31% of that in S&P500 index.

    RWL, SPGP, and SPHQ are now in the red for four weeks. It's tech, or nothing, in the U.S. market.
  • That is if one wants to diversify away from tech and AI-related stocks.

    Future market for Tuesday, November 4, 2025 is all red, including the safe haven asset such as gold.
    https://finviz.com/futures.ashx
  • Sven said:

    That is if one wants to diversify away from tech and AI-related stocks.

    Future market for Tuesday, November 4, 2025 is all red, including the safe haven asset such as gold.
    https://finviz.com/futures.ashx

    RWF is up for me so far. But so are SMH and GRID.

    Between holding SPHQ and SPGP in the taxable, I took a pass on RWL.
  • Good for you. We bought a few US stocks on the dip from April through summer. Mostly we have rebalanced US stocks to EM and developed market. Not convince that AI will provide meaningful profit that it promises. Seen that play before.

    Overall we have been a net seller of stocks so to increase the fixed income allocation.
  • I bought some foreign developed recently for the taxable and the IRA. It went down.:-D

  • Watch the movement of the dollar index. Its movement itself contributes considerable for unhedged foreign funds/ETFs. US dollar lost over 11% since December 2024 that benefits oversea investment. The dollar index has flattened since September. Market turbulence tends to bring investors to US market and the USD that are viewed as safer haven.

    Be patient with oversea investing since there are solid companies out there but they are trading at much more reasonable multiples. I use dollar cost averaging approach to build positions.
  • edited 11:42AM
    WABAC said:

    I was looking at our taxable accounts, and noticing the returns on our various tech-sector funds, and so I asked myself, why even buy the S&P 500 these days--not that I am actually in the market for adding much of anything to the taxable at this point.

    If I was 20-30 years younger, why not just buy a tech fund--or four in the case of my taxable (because I like baskets)--and rearrange the rest of the deck chairs to suit my druthers, i.e., risk tolerance?

    It is pretty much what I do. I own the S&P for its wide exposure. But I juice returns with LCG, tech and others as the momentum dictates. I was more heavily allocating to sectors, until approximately 2023, when the S&P began to outperform nearly everything else. So, I shifted more assets in that direction.

    My 60/40 portfolio is at 17% YTD. Some of that "40" is Pimco CEFs and there is a LOT of cash. So, not a "normal" 60/40 portfolio of S&P and treasuries. Admittedly, certain individual holdings have done a lot of the heavy lifting this year: WBD, CEG, NOK, TSM, RTX, JNJ, PRSCX. When I X-ray my total portfolio to account for mutual fund compositions, NVDA is now my largest holding, with FAANGs basically trailing right behind.



  • Sven said:

    Watch the movement of the dollar index. Its movement itself contributes considerable for unhedged foreign funds/ETFs. US dollar lost over 11% since December 2024 that benefits oversea investment. The dollar index has flattened since September. Market turbulence tends to bring investors to US market and the USD that are viewed as safer haven.

    Be patient with oversea investing since there are solid companies out there but they are trading at much more reasonable multiples. I use dollar cost averaging approach to build positions.

    This may account for my observation that my INTL fund has done great YTD, but leveled off in the last few months.

  • WABAC said:

    Sven said:

    Concur. RWL is another possibility that focus on the company’s revenue. It has 9.4% exposure to tech sector versus the 31% of that in S&P500 index.

    RWL, SPGP, and SPHQ are now in the red for four weeks. It's tech, or nothing, in the U.S. market.
    The question in my mind is where are we in the cycle?
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