Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.
Support MFO
Donate through PayPal
⇒ All Things Boeing ... Machinist Union Accepts Latest Boeing Contract Offer
Yes, I think so also. But then, I'm not sure that it could get much worse. Actually, for a long-term capital gains situation buying/holding BA right now could be a real good move if you can hold on long enough. I'm too old for such things.
Yep. I added more last week. I am probably down about 5% in the current foray into this stock - third time in four years. I started the first time during Covid at near $100. I will hate to give back any profits I already took on BA stock. Each time I buy, I think it is a forever holding but I end up selling for one reason or the other. This time I bought it in a taxable account.
P.s.: corporate wide layoffs are a nice event to get rid of a lot of fat (e.g., redundant management) in the system. Some managers also relish these events to get rid of employees who produce less but take up too much of team resources, including management time, but which employees are otherwise pain to get rid of because of various entrenched corporate idiosyncrasies (e.g., power hogging HR). In all my work, for sometime after each mass layoff, the productivity of my group increased. Some tech companies layoff 5% of their work force every year - does not mean they do not grow. I know it sucks to be unemployed but I can be objective about it because I was unemployed as many years as I was employed.
Yep. I added more last week. I am probably down about 5% in the current foray into this stock - third time in four years. I started the first time during Covid at near $100. I will hate to give back any profits I already took on BA stock. Each time I buy, I think it is a forever holding but I end up selling for one reason or the other. This time I bought it in a taxable account.
P.s.: corporate wide layoffs are a nice event to get rid of a lot of fat (e.g., redundant management) in the system. Some managers also relish these events to get rid of employees who produce less but take up too much of team resources, including management time, but which employees are otherwise pain to get rid of because of various entrenched corporate idiosyncrasies (e.g., power hogging HR). In all my work, for sometime after each mass layoff, the productivity of my group increased. Some tech companies layoff 5% of their work force every year - does not mean they do not grow. I know it sucks to be unemployed but I can be objective about it because I was unemployed as many years as I was employed.
I wish I'd been as thick-skinned as you, about being unemployed. Only a prostate exam is worse.
I do not think I was thick skinned when I was unemployed a few years at a time or when I was employed for that matter. If I were thick skinned, perhaps, I would not have been as unemployed as I was. Once I decided I am not going to look for a job anymore, which effectively means once I retired, I was able to look back and see where I went wrong in not being able to optimize my effort or maximize the output to input ratio in my work life. It turns out, when it comes to life, I am a slow learner! I do have fond memories of people who went out of their way to be helpful with my career. I had tones of help outside my family - I wish I made the most of it and was not so thin skinned.
I do not think I was thick skinned when I was unemployed a few years at a time or when I was employed for that matter. If I were thick skinned, perhaps, I would not have been as unemployed as I was. Once I decided I am not going to look for a job anymore, which effectively means once I retired, I was able to look back and see where I went wrong in not being able to optimize my effort or maximize the output to input ratio in my work life. It turns out, when it comes to life, I am a slow learner! I do have fond memories of people who went out of their way to be helpful with my career. I had tones of help outside my family - I wish I made the most of it and was not so thin skinned.
+1. I very much respect such candor. Thank you. My own career started late. I preferred school, for as long as it did not require actual work. I enjoyed what I was studying. The jobs I took lasted a few years each, with 12-18 month interruptions. I suppose I was aiming for 20 years "in," but lasted 19. I got the Big Fish in the Small Pond angry at me. Then, I said, "forget this! Not again!"
I sold the lot I bought last week as the general market looks to pause, union leader in his interview did not give me the warm feeling the company’s offer would be ratified, post 11/5 election uncertainty, etc. The profit on the trade is not worth talking about but better than if I had traded fixed income. I redeployed the money into NYCB, which at the moment looks a bit rich but its turnaround is already underway.
The main issue apparently isn't about salary increase. The union is trying to restore some version of a defined benefit retirement plan. Probably a lost cause, but I wish them well.
That came as a surprise to me too. The latest offer included a one time upfront bonus of $7k and $5k deposit into 401(k). May be they will be offered an increase in this.
Everyone wants their future guaranteed but not their own contributions. As we remember, UPS union received a handsome contract about 18 months ago but their service level has not improved. I would rate USPS about 10X over UPS service.
Good luck indeed for DB plan.
As to breaking up BA (on my wish list), evidently they are looking to sell their space business.
Defined Benefit plans used to be much more common. What changed? The level of despicable, filthy, fetid corporate GREED? (I already know the answer.) I'm one of the lucky ones.
DB plans became too expensive to run. The benefits grew steadily, but the funds/portfolios supporting them didn't.
Then, there were abuses.
Companies could raid DB plans with excess funds, but not care when plans got underfunded. The nail in the coffin was when the rules were changed to require flowing some unfunded pension liabilities through company earnings. No wonder, companies would do anything to avoid the DB trap. Good luck to BA machinists.
States also abused DB plans by skipping their required contribution, or funding it with borrowing but sticking the plans with debt servicing. State DB plans still exist, but they are supplemented or replaced by 401k/403b.
People who miss DB plans can buy immediate-annuities (SPIA) that are basic, no-frill annuities that can be bought online (i.e. without high commissions). Realize that insurance company has to make money too, so the only way to come out ahead with SPIA is to live forever.
The main issue apparently isn't about salary increase. The union is trying to restore some version of a defined benefit retirement plan. Probably a lost cause, but I wish them well.
Good luck with that. Losing the accumulation phase is nearly impossible to catch up. Besides, pension plans have been disappearing from the work place and replace with define contribution plans. Workers have to contribute to it and manage it throughout their lives.
BA down today. Management should have waited a few more days for the election to be over before agreeing to the new contract. I think BA union members are smarter than BA management, which is reflected in the stock price. I am not motivated to add to my BA position.
Comments
Or they may simply be producing 10% fewer planes.
P.s.: corporate wide layoffs are a nice event to get rid of a lot of fat (e.g., redundant management) in the system. Some managers also relish these events to get rid of employees who produce less but take up too much of team resources, including management time, but which employees are otherwise pain to get rid of because of various entrenched corporate idiosyncrasies (e.g., power hogging HR). In all my work, for sometime after each mass layoff, the productivity of my group increased. Some tech companies layoff 5% of their work force every year - does not mean they do not grow. I know it sucks to be unemployed but I can be objective about it because I was unemployed as many years as I was employed.
I very much respect such candor. Thank you. My own career started late. I preferred school, for as long as it did not require actual work. I enjoyed what I was studying. The jobs I took lasted a few years each, with 12-18 month interruptions. I suppose I was aiming for 20 years "in," but lasted 19. I got the Big Fish in the Small Pond angry at me. Then, I said, "forget this! Not again!"
I wonder how many Boeing planes Arlo rode on?
https://thehill.com/business/4949083-boeing-machinists-reject-new-contract/
May be the following is what the market is comforted by -
"Mr Ortberg [CEO] told investors that his first priority was a "fundamental culture change".
"We need to prevent the festering of issues and work better together to identify, fix and understand root cause," he said."
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp9zrylmdk0o
Everyone wants their future guaranteed but not their own contributions. As we remember, UPS union received a handsome contract about 18 months ago but their service level has not improved. I would rate USPS about 10X over UPS service.
Good luck indeed for DB plan.
As to breaking up BA (on my wish list), evidently they are looking to sell their space business.
Then, there were abuses.
Companies could raid DB plans with excess funds, but not care when plans got underfunded. The nail in the coffin was when the rules were changed to require flowing some unfunded pension liabilities through company earnings. No wonder, companies would do anything to avoid the DB trap. Good luck to BA machinists.
States also abused DB plans by skipping their required contribution, or funding it with borrowing but sticking the plans with debt servicing. State DB plans still exist, but they are supplemented or replaced by 401k/403b.
People who miss DB plans can buy immediate-annuities (SPIA) that are basic, no-frill annuities that can be bought online (i.e. without high commissions). Realize that insurance company has to make money too, so the only way to come out ahead with SPIA is to live forever.
How so?
https://thehill.com/business/4970584-boeing-machinists-vote-to-end-strike-after-53-days/
$12K ratification bonus for 33K machinists means $396 million.
Boeing raised $23.5 billion in stock and convertible preferreds to shore up its finances - amounts reported vary ($21.1-24.3 billion) because of several elements such as stock, preferred, line of credits, additional allotment to be sold. The underwriters got $300 million.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-raises-21-billion-capital-051740350.html
https://theedgemalaysia.com/node/732514
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-launches-offering-90-mln-common-shares-5-bln-depositary-shares-2024-10-28/