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I am the executor of an Estate that contains some 1 ounce Krugerrands and need to get a letter of value for August 3 (date of death). I would appreciate the names and locations (or telephone numbers) of two reputable companies that I can call for such a letter.
I am in the Ft. Lauderdale area. My father originally purchased the Krugerrands through a company by the name of R. W. Bradford & Co. and for some reason I recall they were located in Washington State (maybe Oregon). He passed away in 1997 and I called them back then and they sent me the letter. I googled the company, but cannot seem to find them any longer.
Does a coin dealer physically need to see the Krugerrands to supply the letter of value?
K-Rands, with perhaps some rare or early strikes are generally not unlike Canadian or U.S. gold strikes, in that they are mass minted and do not necessary carry an additional collector value; aside for the buillion value.
I would suggest that you obtain (if possible) any/all dates of the K-Rands or any other "special" info related. I note this, as that there are some Chinese, U.S. and other country gold coins that do have a premium attached for a collector value over and above the buillion value; as some issues/dates have very low mintage amounts and thus an additional value may be associtated with these types.
I presume you already know whether or not you need to have any associated value letter to be notarized for legal reasons. I would also expect a possible small fee to a coin dealer to provide and/or present such a document of value.
I'd take them into one of the local dealers and have them checked over. They are probably your basic plain vanilla business strike bullion coins from some bullion dealer of the time. Dealer doesn't matter because these are estate and should therefore receive a marked up cost basis. Neat. Assuming they're your plain vanilla biz strikes, you need a letter as of the DOD stating the value of a k-rand at that point.
Here's the website of my local dealer but also their daily quote sheet which implies they have them for days past.
Great hearing from you, thanks as always, and especially for your condolences.
I do think they are of the plain vanilla variety. When I bring them to a local dealer in the Ft. Lauderdale area (I am actually in Pompano Beach), do I get them to write a letter of value on the DOD based on their sell or buy price?
The Estate is small and will have no Federal or State tax consequences, but since they were not in the Trust (so they must be accounted for in the will), the attorney will get compensated (I think it's 3% in Florida on assets that pass through probate) on the "value" and I just learned there the count may be as high as 25. So it would seem I would want a lower value as relates to relates to attorney fees, but realize this will create a lower tax basis if they were sold in the future.
A note regarding relative value from a buyer's side. I use eBay as a real proxy for the value of many items during a given day or week. Several K-rands sold on Aug 3, between $1745 and $1721. Not being an attorney, but which your attorney should be able to define; in the eye of common sense, I would place the true value at "how much" a dealer would have paid for each coin. To my mind, this is the true value of an item. As you note, the lower value being placed to the price a dealer would have paid will reduce current fees; but would revalue the basis for a future sale. Hoping these thoughts are of some value.
I am going to try to get to a dealer today or tomorrow and will let you and Rono know the outcome.
In the mean time, your comment "Several K-rands sold on Aug 3, between $1745 and $1721" interests me. I am not very computer savvy, but can you either post two of these sales from August 3 (one for $1,721 and one for $1,745) or instruct me how to find them on eBay?
I would like to print them out and they very well may suffice for the lawyer since the Estate is small and there will be no tax consequences (I can't see the IRS having any interest and even if the IRS wanted to place the value of each Krugerrand at $20,000 on August 3, there still would be no tax consequences on the Estate).
I will set 6 EBAY closed auction links below, all from Aug 3. These should be readily accessible and no need for an ebay login or otherwise. You will find some ad pics and such at the page tops....scroll down to see the closed auction data....ALSO, as you scroll down and JUST below the sellers name on the right page edge; you will find a light blue PRINT icon. Click onto this for a new page for the closed auction to obtain fewer printed pages. You may want to just print each auction will all pages, although there may be one or two at the end that are of no value. You can determine this after printing the first auction and discover you really only need the first two pages for the info you need.
NOTE: keep in mind that these are the BUY/SELLING prices that the high bidder was willing to pay, AND NOT the price you may have received from a coin dealer. Calling dealers and asking "what will you pay me for a K-rand?" and also "what will it cost me to buy a K-Rand today?". Perhaps using different dealers for these questions. While you will not obtain an Aug 3 price with this; you will be able to determine the % change for the dealer between a buy or sell scenario on the day you call.
NOTE 2: I did not read through the text of the auctions, BUT some are free shipping and some have "insurance" included. Past these items, I feel the prices and the range provide an accurate presentation of pricing for Aug 3.
For estate evaluation purposes, you want to use the dealers Buy Price not Sale Price. The difference is similar to the spread between retail and wholesale.
I agree with Ron about this, and I believe this was noted in the previous discussions. One may suppose the rub here is that you "could" have been the seller at EBAY and realized the prices shown; but as Rono noted, this is not the price a dealer "buy/spread' would offer to you.
The attorney should be able to offer the "legal" acceptable method of pricing.
When executing an estate, you must take the high road in all instances. When assigning a value to some asset, you use the price that you would receive if you had to sell it. Any other pricing must be explained in the documentation for the heirs.
And speaking of which, keep kinghellbastard records with copies for everyone.
Comments
How far away from a metro area or established retail coin dealer? Give us a kinda round about zip code or such.
Regards,
Catch
I am in the Ft. Lauderdale area. My father originally purchased the Krugerrands through a company by the name of R. W. Bradford & Co. and for some reason I recall they were located in Washington State (maybe Oregon). He passed away in 1997 and I called them back then and they sent me the letter. I googled the company, but cannot seem to find them any longer.
Does a coin dealer physically need to see the Krugerrands to supply the letter of value?
Thank You.
Mona
This is a Google link with dealer listings in your area.
http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ew#hl=en&xhr=t&q=Ft.+Lauderdale+coin+dealer&cp=26&qe=RnQuIExhdWRlcmRhbGUgY29pbiBkZWFsZXI&qesig=vTSWqtI_xEDZQZOKls6jNA&pkc=AFgZ2tmpQsJDup7TII_PpsjrP4881fbKJInCwL7LqEPI-ihfEo3d8imu08YcZfhbMa6Ykul2bb7iyJBXxYL2cwzd2n74drsdXw&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=webhp&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=Ft.+Lauderdale+coin+dealer&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=95c274dee417620a&biw=1237&bih=748
K-Rands, with perhaps some rare or early strikes are generally not unlike Canadian or U.S. gold strikes, in that they are mass minted and do not necessary carry an additional collector value; aside for the buillion value.
I would suggest that you obtain (if possible) any/all dates of the K-Rands or any other "special" info related.
I note this, as that there are some Chinese, U.S. and other country gold coins that do have a premium attached for a collector value over and above the buillion value; as some issues/dates have very low mintage amounts and thus an additional value may be associtated with these types.
I presume you already know whether or not you need to have any associated value letter to be notarized for legal reasons. I would also expect a possible small fee to a coin dealer to provide and/or present such a document of value.
Good fortune with this.
Regards,
Catch
Sorry about your loss.
Good stuff by Mark.
I'd take them into one of the local dealers and have them checked over. They are probably your basic plain vanilla business strike bullion coins from some bullion dealer of the time. Dealer doesn't matter because these are estate and should therefore receive a marked up cost basis. Neat. Assuming they're your plain vanilla biz strikes, you need a letter as of the DOD stating the value of a k-rand at that point.
Here's the website of my local dealer but also their daily quote sheet which implies they have them for days past.
http://www.libertycoinservice.com/
http://www.libertycoinservice.com/images/stories/offersandquotes/daily_quotes.pdf
And get a couple of quotes because this is real money in an estate.
good luck,
rono
Great hearing from you, thanks as always, and especially for your condolences.
I do think they are of the plain vanilla variety. When I bring them to a local dealer in the Ft. Lauderdale area (I am actually in Pompano Beach), do I get them to write a letter of value on the DOD based on their sell or buy price?
The Estate is small and will have no Federal or State tax consequences, but since they were not in the Trust (so they must be accounted for in the will), the attorney will get compensated (I think it's 3% in Florida on assets that pass through probate) on the "value" and I just learned there the count may be as high as 25. So it would seem I would want a lower value as relates to relates to attorney fees, but realize this will create a lower tax basis if they were sold in the future.
How would you or Mark suggest I handle this?
Best Regards,
Mona
A note regarding relative value from a buyer's side. I use eBay as a real proxy for the value of many items during a given day or week. Several K-rands sold on Aug 3, between $1745 and $1721.
Not being an attorney, but which your attorney should be able to define; in the eye of common sense, I would place the true value at "how much" a dealer would have paid for each coin. To my mind, this is the true value of an item. As you note, the lower value being placed to the price a dealer would have paid will reduce current fees; but would revalue the basis for a future sale.
Hoping these thoughts are of some value.
Take care of you and yours,
Catch/Mark
Yes your thoughts have value.
I am going to try to get to a dealer today or tomorrow and will let you and Rono know the outcome.
In the mean time, your comment "Several K-rands sold on Aug 3, between $1745 and $1721" interests me. I am not very computer savvy, but can you either post two of these sales from August 3 (one for $1,721 and one for $1,745) or instruct me how to find them on eBay?
I would like to print them out and they very well may suffice for the lawyer since the Estate is small and there will be no tax consequences (I can't see the IRS having any interest and even if the IRS wanted to place the value of each Krugerrand at $20,000 on August 3, there still would be no tax consequences on the Estate).
Best Regards,
Mona
I will set 6 EBAY closed auction links below, all from Aug 3. These should be readily accessible and no need for an ebay login or otherwise. You will find some ad pics and such at the page tops....scroll down to see the closed auction data....ALSO, as you scroll down and JUST below the sellers name on the right page edge; you will find a light blue PRINT icon. Click onto this for a new page for the closed auction to obtain fewer printed pages. You may want to just print each auction will all pages, although there may be one or two at the end that are of no value. You can determine this after printing the first auction and discover you really only need the first two pages for the info you need.
NOTE: keep in mind that these are the BUY/SELLING prices that the high bidder was willing to pay, AND NOT the price you may have received from a coin dealer. Calling dealers and asking "what will you pay me for a K-rand?" and also "what will it cost me to buy a K-Rand today?". Perhaps using different dealers for these questions. While you will not obtain an Aug 3 price with this; you will be able to determine the % change for the dealer between a buy or sell scenario on the day you call.
NOTE 2: I did not read through the text of the auctions, BUT some are free shipping and some have "insurance" included. Past these items, I feel the prices and the range provide an accurate presentation of pricing for Aug 3.
Let me know how the links work....okay?
Take care,
Catch/Mark
http://cgi.ebay.com/1975-KRUGERRAND-KRUGERAND-1-OZ-FINE-GOLD-COIN-BULLION-/280718446461?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415c1f8f7d
http://cgi.ebay.com/1980-SOUTH-AFRICA-KRUGERRAND-1-OZ-FINE-GOLD-COIN-BU-/220820729080?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3369f0ecf8
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-oz-Gold-Krugerrand-1977-/160631555932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256663075c
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-oz-Krugerrand-1979-Gold-Coin-/260828798779?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cba9b9f3b
http://cgi.ebay.com/1975-1oz-KRUGERRAND-South-African-Gold-Coin-UNC-/160630358581?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256650c235
http://cgi.ebay.com/1978-South-African-Krugerrand-1oz-Gold-Coin-/170674568730?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27bcff3e1a
For estate evaluation purposes, you want to use the dealers Buy Price not Sale Price. The difference is similar to the spread between retail and wholesale.
Good luck,
rono
I agree with Ron about this, and I believe this was noted in the previous discussions. One may suppose the rub here is that you "could" have been the seller at EBAY and realized the prices shown; but as Rono noted, this is not the price a dealer "buy/spread' would offer to you.
The attorney should be able to offer the "legal" acceptable method of pricing.
Regards,
Catch
When executing an estate, you must take the high road in all instances. When assigning a value to some asset, you use the price that you would receive if you had to sell it. Any other pricing must be explained in the documentation for the heirs.
And speaking of which, keep kinghellbastard records with copies for everyone.
peace,
rono