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...I am finding out very recently, (in just the past couple of days) that TRP brokerage is heavily dependent on Pershing, since TRP has farmed out those applicable functions to that other firm. Even the tradingplatform "belongs" to Pershing.... Customer "service" phone-answerers know diddly squat. Not equipped to do feces. "Please hold, while I call Pershing for an answer to that question." They come back with an answer which is patently false. I know it's false, from personal experience. So, the ones they depend on for information to feed the customer are feeding them a load of junk. The people at Pershing are guessing, too. No one knows anything about anything. It is a deplorable state of affairs. Only laziness keeps me from moving my stuff. Despite input here, Fidelity won't work for me. I find its website atrociously klunky, unfriendly. Perhaps I'll check Schwab. And Schwab actually has a realoffice, downtown, here, on Bishop Street. Fidelity shows their closest office is in Marin County, Calif. I guess we're just not a priority, out here...
Well, Pershing is the clearing firm for Price/TROW. Also for TIAA, etc. Sometimes, 1 day may be lost by transfers between fund firm and Pershing.
Fido, Schwab, Vanguard (recent) have their own clearing operations and that makes a huge difference. But if you want a local office, or even 24/7 phone service, forget Vanguard.
Someone I help with financial stuff has an account with a brokerage that uses Pershing as its clearing house. The latest problem (can you say esoteric?):
In 2023, Puerto Rico swapped a bond held in the account for shares of a Delaware grantor trust holding a handful of PR bonds. Obviously the original PR bond was purchased for its state/federal-tax-exempt status. The swap doesn't change that because the underlying holdings are still PR bonds.
If a trust is a grantor trust, then the grantor is treated as the owner of the assets, the trust is disregarded as a separate tax entity, and all income is taxed to the grantor.
Pershing is not disregarding the trust. Its 1099 says that the income comes from Delaware because the trust is from Delaware. That would make the income taxable in 49 states. If I don't see a corrected 1099 in a couple of weeks, I'll contact the brokerage to ask Pershing to take a closer look at this income.
I was about to open a new thread when I saw this one. I guess I'm not the only investor to have serious issues with TRP. I initially had a TRP Joint Tenant account which I converted to a Living Trust account without problems. When my wife died, I established an irrevocable Disclaimer Trust. TRP wanted a Medallion Signature Guarantee just to MOVE a few of the Living Trust funds into the Disclaimer Trust! It required a senior officer in TRP to give the go-ahead. Now the problem is that I cannot view the trust tax forms online. "The Social Security Number (SSN) or Tax Identification Number (TIN) associated with the account is different from that of the logged-in user." Well of course it is! I used my SS# for the Joint Tenant account. I spoke to a TRP rep who had me fill out a new account application with a separate Letter of Instruction. They emailed me saying it was impossible! I replied that Vanguard and Fidelity had no problems with it, and I can view their forms. Am I the first investor to convert from a Joint Tenant to a Trust account? Why does TRP find simple requests impossible when other brokerage firms handle them on a daily basis? If it wasn't for the Capital Gains hit I would liquidate my TRP account today. Anyway, she offered to mail me all of my tax forms, and I said sure - from 2013 onward!
I had ANOTHER "conversation" with TRP today. Attempting to make a trade. But the trading tool doesn't work. The agent's English and enunciation was mushy, which does not help, either. Not to mention that I'm sure the headset or earbuds they are using (so they don't have to literally hold the phone all day) has a signal that fades in and out. Weak. Sub-standard service when I have to work so hard JUST TO UNDERSTAND THEM--- let alone try to address the problem.
So, he tells me not to enter fractional shares in the "share box." But no matter which WHOLE numbers I try to enter, it still will not let me do it.
Then he tells me to use another box and select "sell all." When I did that, the fractional shares were AUTOMATICALLY ENTERED. (And those fractional shares do not QUITE match the fractional number displayed on the screen; a different screen has the ACCURATE number!!!) What's wrong with THIS picture?????
.....And what if I don't want to sell my entire position, anyhow? Then we are back where we started, when he picked up my call. TRP is using some bullshit Call Center where they don't know nothing from nothing. On top of that, the trading platform actually "belongs to and is administered by Pershing". So, they gotta put me on hold while they go get answers from Pershing. And then they come back and feed it to me. And I have to tell them that the answer they just gave me CONTRADICTS my prior experience, using the trading tool. So, the people at Pershing have their heads stuck up where the sun don't shine, too.
SCHWAB is looking more and more inviting. But I had a couple of phone calls with them today which do not instill confidence. You have an office in my city, but I can't get anything done there, IN PERSON? ..."Not without an appointment." Then why have an office at all? I could call the employee, leave a message (because no one EVER picks up the phone!) and wait for the call-back, THEN make the stinking appointment, and then we could do what we need to do over coffee at Starbucks. Makes no f*****g sense.
Crash - I’m sorry to hear of the inconvenience you suffered with T Rowe Price today. But are you sure it was Pershing they had to speak with? No wonder it took so long.
Crash - I’m sorry to hear of the inconvenience you suffered with T Rowe Price today. But are you sure it was Pershing they had to speak with? No wonder it took so long.
In this latest snafu, I'm actually not 100% certain of anything in that regard. People who work in Call Centers have to make a living every day, communicating! How can it be that the suck-heads in charge of hiring hire so many people who are just plain unable to COMMUNICATE?!
I have explored the Schwab website a bit further. Zero online trade fees. Good. But fees apply with Canadian stocks, ADRs, foreign stocks. I checked out the numbered footnotes. Sucks wet dog fur..... What to do????? Can't go to Fido. Despite how happy everyone ELSE is with their service and website, I find Fido's website to be a flying circus disaster.
I'm sorry but not surprised to hear about these latest problems (execution of a transfer, online access) with T. Rowe Price. While I'm hardly defending them - incompetency is different from strict procedures - TRP could have underlying procedures that made the handling of trusts more difficult. It's the incompetency in TRP navigating its own procedures that seems to be the real problem.
For example, Fidelity has a rule that it won't let an individual transfer money from a joint account to their individual account without the express consent of the joint owner. Fidelity acknowledges that the individual has the legal right to make the transfer. But Fidelity has experienced enough complaints coming from joint owners that it has created this rule. However, Fidelity understands its own rule and has helped me work with it (joint owner preapproval on file).
What about funding IRAs from joint accounts? Fidelity makes an exception for this - it's done too often for Fidelity to apply its rule and I assume Fidelity doesn't get many complaints from joint owners about that type of transfer.
Access to records can be difficult at Vanguard. I had power of attorney (POA) for someone's account and was also executor. Knowing that Vanguard follows procedures rigidly, I snarfed all the records prior to notifying Vanguard of the person's death. The instant I notified Vanguard, access to the account including records was shut down.
As executor I was able to transfer assets into an estate account, but I never got access to the old account records. I might have had I pushed hard enough. Not worth it, since I already had squirrelled them away. Curiously this happened back when Pershing cleared Vanguard's transactions. Correlation or causation?
Back to TRP - my epilogue may sound familiar to @hank. TRP finally received the check from another institution on Fri, Feb 2 and shares were purchased in my TRP fund. On Mon Feb 5, TRP tried to cash the check a second time and added more shares to my account. On Feb 7, TRP canceled the Feb 5 purchase.
Yesterday I receive a snail mail notice that the check bounced:
The check we received in the amount of $$$ was not honored and was returned to us as unpaid. Accordingly, we have withdrawn the shares purchased by this payment.
I had to go check to make sure that TRP only removed the dup shares and that I still had the original Feb 2 shares in the account.
I don't think that T Rowe Price offers genuine fractional trading for stocks/ETFs (that one can enter as orders; Fido & Schwab allow that, but a different order screen may be needed). But there are fractional shares for mutual funds and dividend reinvestments, and sell-all should work. Price clears through Pershing/BNY-Mellon, so restrictions are coming from that.
I think that one can drop by at Fido or Schwab local office for simple things. But if you need to see someone for more complex things, appointment may be required.
Almost all brokers charge fees of $50 or so for stocks that trade on foreign exchanges, and Canada is considered foreign. This is why use ADRs with tickers ending in "Y" that trade in the US, not those ending in "F" that trade on foreign exchanges.
Edit/Add. This appointment thing is getting out of hand as businesses work with skeleton staff. The other day, I dropped by my local hospital/clinic OUTPATIENT LAB for some blood work, and they asked be if I had an appointment? Since when, I asked? Lady said this has been for a while. But she graciously took care of the tests, but said to make appointment the NEXT time. Banks, w/appointments. Car dealers, w/appointments.
@Crash - I do not understand your problems with the Fidelity website. I think it’s fantastic. I’ve been one of their customers for 20+ years, so maybe your issues are due to lack of familiarity. I also had an account with TRP for more than 20 years until I transferred all the holdings to Fidelity. IMHO, the Fidelity website is much, much better than TRP. I used to do a lot of fund research at M* as well until it became so unwelcoming, and I actually find the Fidelity website more useful for researching and comparing funds. Although I seldom have to talk with a Fido representative on the phone, they are always very helpful and friendly. In addition, Fidelity has an office in my city, and I generally have a face-to-face meeting with my rep once a year. You do have to make an appointment, but that’s no unreasonable to me.
So far this week I've bought and redeemed mutual funds, bought an ETF for the first time via TRP brokerage and bought shares of common stock via TRP brokerage, all from the TRP website without a single issue.
Just placed a purchase order for Wednesday into both of our Roth IRA's.
I don't think that T Rowe Price offers genuine fractional trading for stocks/ETFs (that one can enter as orders; Fido & Schwab allow that, but a different order screen may be needed). But there are fractional shares for mutual funds and dividend reinvestments, and sell-all should work. Price clears through Pershing/BNY-Mellon, so restrictions are coming from that.
TRP is still a far sight better than Merrill Edge when it comes to fractions. At Merrill, you can't enter fractions of shares, even of mutual funds, into its online form. And if you check the box "sell all", it sells only the whole shares that day. The remaining fraction gets sold somewhere around the third week of the month (likely batched together with all other account fractions), even for money market funds.
Almost all brokers charge fees of $50 or so for stocks that trade on foreign exchanges, and Canada is considered foreign. This is why use ADRs with tickers ending in "Y" that trade in the US, not those ending in "F" that trade on foreign exchanges.
The tickers ending in F are used when trading foreign stocks domestically, OTC. These trades typically incur a $50 commission as stated. (Schwab charges $6.95 for Canadian stocks.) Some foreign stocks or ETFs may be listed on a domestic exchange and trade commission-free like domestic stocks. One can also trade foreign stocks on foreign exchanges, without the OTC'ized ticker.
When trading directly on a foreign exchange each broker has different fees. At Schwab, a commission is the greater of $100 or 0.75% of the amount traded (see link above). That's prohibitive if one can trade the same stock OTC. At Fidelity, the fees are more modest (you can trade online), though there are additional costs: currency exchange fees and taxes/fees originating from the foreign country/exchange.
Fidelity suggests holding foreign currency if one is going to make several trades on a given foreign exchange. That way one avoids multiple currency exchange fees (Fidelity charges up to 1%). Fidelity's list of fees - commissions, currency exchanges, and foreign taxes/fees is here:
In trying to look for clear & concise explanation of "Y" and "F" shares, I found this:
"If the ticker ends with the letter "Y", this means that it is not an F share, but a Y share."
OK, cannot argue with that at all (-:). But seriously, from the same link (from a legal outfit),
"Y shares designate American Depositary Receipts (ADR) that are being traded in the US market. Banks or other depositary institutions will hold foreign shares and issue receipts for them. This is called an ADR. The ADR will be denominated in a ratio of one ADR to X-number of foreign shares."
"While (F share) trades are executed in US dollars by US broker-dealers, the shares are settled, cleared and custodised in your local market. An F share is created in the US when a broker-dealer files a Form 211 with FINRA (the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority) to create a US ticker symbol in order to report trades in the US in your company’s shares. This is not a new share. It is a reference to your existing shares via a newly created ticker symbol in the United States for reporting and trading purposes."
My story: from YEARS ago, I had a Canadian "F" share fund. Commission/fee was high - I don't remember if it was $50, but was much higher than $6.95. It had almost 3-day turnaround for trade confirmations (not for settlement!). When I complained, I was told that those don't really trade in the US. Some US aggregator/dealer trades them in Canada when he felt like it, and my broker could confirm only when he reported back. From that time on, I have avoided tickers ending in "F". Tickers ending in "Y" do trade within the US.
I posted a week ago complaining that TRP would not let me view my trust account statements online because the SS# I opened the account with is different than the trust(s) TIN#. I spoke with the TRP rep who said it couldn't be done. I told her I only needed the annual 1099-DIV tax forms for my records. She said she could mail them. Today I received a UPS package with about 5 pounds of forms - EVERY MONTHLY AND QUARTERLY STATEMENT SINCE 2013 - BUT NOT A SINGLE 1099-DIV! When they say "Invest with Confidence" they must mean with someone else!
I posted a week ago complaining that TRP would not let me view my trust account statements online because the SS# I opened the account with is different than the trust(s) TIN#. I spoke with the TRP rep who said it couldn't be done. I told her I only needed the annual 1099-DIV tax forms for my records. She said she could mail them. Today I received a UPS package with about 5 pounds of forms - EVERY MONTHLY AND QUARTERLY STATEMENT SINCE 2013 - BUT NOT A SINGLE 1099-DIV! When they say "Invest with Confidence" they must mean with someone else!
I hear you, and I can FEEL that right along with you. A different industry entirely, but the same incompetence going on: We still have no INSURANCE CARDS for the current year policy on the car. Liberty Mutual took our money. The policy is paid for. We are covered. But when, in desperation, I searched for and found our LOCAL agent's phone, I called--- after previously using the L.M. published customer Rage and Aggravation phone number. And I was told that Liberty Mutual was using an old address.
The next logical question to be asked is: Why the f*** do they have the correct, current address when they want to TAKE MY MONEY, but when they have to do what's required for me, there's a snafu?" .....Ya, there is no good answer. The LOCAL woman updated the address and once AGAIN requested the stupid insurance cards for us. Supposed to get here by the end of the month. Ya, THAT'S timely, eh? (Shit.)
@bilvihur. Keep us posted. As I've said many times elsewhere: Customer SERVICE has been dead. Dead as a doornail, for DECADES. Phone agents you will never meet make promises. Phone agents with fake names make promises. Phone agents who know feces about feces tell you they're getting it done for you... Ya. Pardon me, while I contemptuously LAUGH IN YOUR FACE.
Today I received a UPS package with about 5 pounds of forms - EVERY MONTHLY AND QUARTERLY STATEMENT SINCE 2013 - BUT NOT A SINGLE 1099-DIV! When they say "Invest with Confidence" they must mean with someone else!
+1 / Somewhat similar to the issue I struggled with for about 3 months before parting company. Secure, pre-announced, accurate and confirmed delivery of financial documents to a pre-authorized destination (either online or thru paper mailings) would seem a rather basic service. Not rocket science.
And think of the trees cut needlessly for all that unwanted paper.
I have a insurance company that was using the wrong address also. The second time this happen ,annual renewal, the problem was found & fixed. It seems former employee had a "problem" and was not updating all address changes. Shit Happens, Derf
Comments
Fido, Schwab, Vanguard (recent) have their own clearing operations and that makes a huge difference. But if you want a local office, or even 24/7 phone service, forget Vanguard.
In 2023, Puerto Rico swapped a bond held in the account for shares of a Delaware grantor trust holding a handful of PR bonds. Obviously the original PR bond was purchased for its state/federal-tax-exempt status. The swap doesn't change that because the underlying holdings are still PR bonds. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/abusive-trust-tax-evasion-schemes-questions-and-answers
Pershing is not disregarding the trust. Its 1099 says that the income comes from Delaware because the trust is from Delaware. That would make the income taxable in 49 states. If I don't see a corrected 1099 in a couple of weeks, I'll contact the brokerage to ask Pershing to take a closer look at this income.
Now the problem is that I cannot view the trust tax forms online. "The Social Security Number (SSN) or Tax Identification Number (TIN) associated with the account is different from that of the logged-in user." Well of course it is! I used my SS# for the Joint Tenant account.
I spoke to a TRP rep who had me fill out a new account application with a separate Letter of Instruction. They emailed me saying it was impossible! I replied that Vanguard and Fidelity had no problems with it, and I can view their forms. Am I the first investor to convert from a Joint Tenant to a Trust account?
Why does TRP find simple requests impossible when other brokerage firms handle them on a daily basis? If it wasn't for the Capital Gains hit I would liquidate my TRP account today.
Anyway, she offered to mail me all of my tax forms, and I said sure - from 2013 onward!
So, he tells me not to enter fractional shares in the "share box." But no matter which WHOLE numbers I try to enter, it still will not let me do it.
Then he tells me to use another box and select "sell all."
When I did that, the fractional shares were AUTOMATICALLY ENTERED. (And those fractional shares do not QUITE match the fractional number displayed on the screen; a different screen has the ACCURATE number!!!) What's wrong with THIS picture?????
.....And what if I don't want to sell my entire position, anyhow? Then we are back where we started, when he picked up my call. TRP is using some bullshit Call Center where they don't know nothing from nothing. On top of that, the trading platform actually "belongs to and is administered by Pershing". So, they gotta put me on hold while they go get answers from Pershing. And then they come back and feed it to me. And I have to tell them that the answer they just gave me CONTRADICTS my prior experience, using the trading tool. So, the people at Pershing have their heads stuck up where the sun don't shine, too.
SCHWAB is looking more and more inviting. But I had a couple of phone calls with them today which do not instill confidence. You have an office in my city, but I can't get anything done there, IN PERSON? ..."Not without an appointment." Then why have an office at all? I could call the employee, leave a message (because no one EVER picks up the phone!) and wait for the call-back, THEN make the stinking appointment, and then we could do what we need to do over coffee at Starbucks. Makes no f*****g sense.
I have explored the Schwab website a bit further. Zero online trade fees. Good. But fees apply with Canadian stocks, ADRs, foreign stocks. I checked out the numbered footnotes. Sucks wet dog fur..... What to do????? Can't go to Fido. Despite how happy everyone ELSE is with their service and website, I find Fido's website to be a flying circus disaster.
For example, Fidelity has a rule that it won't let an individual transfer money from a joint account to their individual account without the express consent of the joint owner. Fidelity acknowledges that the individual has the legal right to make the transfer. But Fidelity has experienced enough complaints coming from joint owners that it has created this rule. However, Fidelity understands its own rule and has helped me work with it (joint owner preapproval on file).
What about funding IRAs from joint accounts? Fidelity makes an exception for this - it's done too often for Fidelity to apply its rule and I assume Fidelity doesn't get many complaints from joint owners about that type of transfer.
Access to records can be difficult at Vanguard. I had power of attorney (POA) for someone's account and was also executor. Knowing that Vanguard follows procedures rigidly, I snarfed all the records prior to notifying Vanguard of the person's death. The instant I notified Vanguard, access to the account including records was shut down.
As executor I was able to transfer assets into an estate account, but I never got access to the old account records. I might have had I pushed hard enough. Not worth it, since I already had squirrelled them away. Curiously this happened back when Pershing cleared Vanguard's transactions. Correlation or causation?
Back to TRP - my epilogue may sound familiar to @hank. TRP finally received the check from another institution on Fri, Feb 2 and shares were purchased in my TRP fund. On Mon Feb 5, TRP tried to cash the check a second time and added more shares to my account. On Feb 7, TRP canceled the Feb 5 purchase.
Yesterday I receive a snail mail notice that the check bounced: I had to go check to make sure that TRP only removed the dup shares and that I still had the original Feb 2 shares in the account.
I think that one can drop by at Fido or Schwab local office for simple things. But if you need to see someone for more complex things, appointment may be required.
Almost all brokers charge fees of $50 or so for stocks that trade on foreign exchanges, and Canada is considered foreign. This is why use ADRs with tickers ending in "Y" that trade in the US, not those ending in "F" that trade on foreign exchanges.
Edit/Add. This appointment thing is getting out of hand as businesses work with skeleton staff. The other day, I dropped by my local hospital/clinic OUTPATIENT LAB for some blood work, and they asked be if I had an appointment? Since when, I asked? Lady said this has been for a while. But she graciously took care of the tests, but said to make appointment the NEXT time. Banks, w/appointments. Car dealers, w/appointments.
Just placed a purchase order for Wednesday into both of our Roth IRA's.
Your experience may differ.
Schwab page on different ways of investing in foreign companies
Forbes: OTC vs listed stocks (not specific to foreign stocks)
When trading directly on a foreign exchange each broker has different fees. At Schwab, a commission is the greater of $100 or 0.75% of the amount traded (see link above). That's prohibitive if one can trade the same stock OTC. At Fidelity, the fees are more modest (you can trade online), though there are additional costs: currency exchange fees and taxes/fees originating from the foreign country/exchange.
Fidelity suggests holding foreign currency if one is going to make several trades on a given foreign exchange. That way one avoids multiple currency exchange fees (Fidelity charges up to 1%). Fidelity's list of fees - commissions, currency exchanges, and foreign taxes/fees is here:
https://www.fidelity.com/stock-trading/faqs-international
(expand the question: What are the international stock commissions and fees?)
"If the ticker ends with the letter "Y", this means that it is not an F share, but a Y share."
OK, cannot argue with that at all (-:). But seriously, from the same link (from a legal outfit),
"Y shares designate American Depositary Receipts (ADR) that are being traded in the US market. Banks or other depositary institutions will hold foreign shares and issue receipts for them. This is called an ADR. The ADR will be denominated in a ratio of one ADR to X-number of foreign shares."
"While (F share) trades are executed in US dollars by US broker-dealers, the shares are settled, cleared and custodised in your local market.
An F share is created in the US when a broker-dealer files a Form 211 with FINRA (the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority) to create a US ticker symbol in order to report trades in the US in your company’s shares. This is not a new share. It is a reference to your existing shares via a newly created ticker symbol in the United States for reporting and trading purposes."
My story: from YEARS ago, I had a Canadian "F" share fund. Commission/fee was high - I don't remember if it was $50, but was much higher than $6.95. It had almost 3-day turnaround for trade confirmations (not for settlement!). When I complained, I was told that those don't really trade in the US. Some US aggregator/dealer trades them in Canada when he felt like it, and my broker could confirm only when he reported back. From that time on, I have avoided tickers ending in "F". Tickers ending in "Y" do trade within the US.
https://www.carstedrosenberg.com/post/what-are-f-shares
Today I received a UPS package with about 5 pounds of forms - EVERY MONTHLY AND QUARTERLY STATEMENT SINCE 2013 - BUT NOT A SINGLE 1099-DIV!
When they say "Invest with Confidence" they must mean with someone else!
A different industry entirely, but the same incompetence going on: We still have no INSURANCE CARDS for the current year policy on the car. Liberty Mutual took our money. The policy is paid for. We are covered. But when, in desperation, I searched for and found our LOCAL agent's phone, I called--- after previously using the L.M. published customer Rage and Aggravation phone number. And I was told that Liberty Mutual was using an old address.
The next logical question to be asked is: Why the f*** do they have the correct, current address when they want to TAKE MY MONEY, but when they have to do what's required for me, there's a snafu?" .....Ya, there is no good answer. The LOCAL woman updated the address and once AGAIN requested the stupid insurance cards for us. Supposed to get here by the end of the month. Ya, THAT'S timely, eh? (Shit.)
@bilvihur. Keep us posted.
As I've said many times elsewhere: Customer SERVICE has been dead. Dead as a doornail, for DECADES. Phone agents you will never meet make promises. Phone agents with fake names make promises. Phone agents who know feces about feces tell you they're getting it done for you... Ya. Pardon me, while I contemptuously LAUGH IN YOUR FACE.
And think of the trees cut needlessly for all that unwanted paper.
Shit Happens, Derf