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For the bears... what might trigger the correction?

This is serious question, not a rhetorical one: IF you consider this market overvalued and expect it to drop sharply, what could be the trigger? (It seems like global depression and a still uncontrolled epidemic aren't enough.) I ask because I'm sitting on more cash than usual for me and wondering if it makes sense to keep sitting.

PS IF you are someone who had perfect market timing and got fully invested in April, super congrats to you, but bragging about your brilliance won't count as a useful answer.

Comments

  • The markets expectation is that a vaccine will be available if not by late this year early next and that it is effective to at least 50-60%. Any other scenario could be another pretty big fall. I think we are priced for success in the vaccine arena.

  • Hi @MikeM, vaccine disappointment would definitely be #1 on the list!

    Other possibilities:

    2. This V shaped recovery turns into a W, either because stimulus peters out or we get a second wave like the Spanish flu.

    3. A disputed result in the presidential election leads to chaos and disorder in November, crippling both stimulus and virus-fighting actions (if those are indeed still needed)

    4. A banking crisis, maybe starting in emerging markets or one of the weaker Southern European countries, and stimulus-weary governments don't act fast enough to snuff it out.

    5. Hints emerge that a Biden adminstration is going to make Elizabeth Warren Treasury Secretary and / or adopt an aggressive antitrust policy regarding the tech giants

    6. Fed starts dialing back the QE a little too soon.

    I don't think any of these are all that likely, but that's what I come up with.
  • edited September 2020
    I am thinking, and maybe it is fantasy wishing, that the breadth and consequence of the worsening economic recession will slowly sink in, and then less slowly. That's all. It has happened before, to some extent. Ongoing seriously curtailed spending, that sort of thing, seeping into investor consciousness, along w (partly causing) the realization of the crazy overpricing of tech-based LCG. Persistence of this plague.
    I don't know that politics and taxes and policy will enter into it that much. I expect that investors will be extremely glad --- but temporarily --- to see Trump thoroughly repudiated. If that happens.

    Again, may well be confirmation bias and other motivations.
  • With football to enter the picture soon, all the investor (gambler) money entering the market disappears & market takes a dip !
    Go Pack Go, Derf
  • edited September 2020
    “ For the bears... what might trigger the correction?”

    I’d take exception to the wording. Of course, any market can “correct” (financial stocks, technology, emerging markets, gold, real estate). Let’s assume you are talking about the broad U.S. stock market as represented by the S&P 500 and other indexes. One need not be a bear to expect a stock market correction at some point. They are healthy and necessary to efficiently functioning markets. And, “correction” should not be confused with “crash”. The former tends to be quite temporary. The latter can set investors back for several years.

    This question is nearly impossible to address. I don’t worry about corrections. Some markets saw a 30% correction only a few months ago. It turned out to be a good buying opportunity. A “crash” is an entirely different matter. It can result in sector losses of 50% or greater, grind on for years (occasionally decades) , and seriously damage many investors. Crashes tend to cause significant changes in investor psyche and this alone becomes a factor in how valuations are perceived.

    What might cause a crash?

    - Interest rates across the spectrum rising.

    - Reactionary belt-tightening by Congress and the Executive branch - a slashing of federal spending combined with higher taxes (highly unlikely in a Pres. election year).
  • Howdy expatsp/all,

    You pretty much list the biggies. However, I see some of these as givens.

    1. The vaccine 'promise' won't matter because at this point, not enough people are going to take it. feh. Wifey and I got our flu shots day before yesterday, but I won't get a Covid-19 shot at least until fall of 2021 and maybe not then. I no longer trust anything coming out of Washington and the FDA. Any vaccine they approve will be on a scale with injecting rat poison or drinking bleach. I did hear someone suggest paying Americans $1000 each to get the shot and this is actually a very good idea. You get immunization AND stimulate Aggregate Demand.

    2. 2nd Wave is a given because we're so damn dumb and with gridlock in DC, I see nothing in the way of additional stimulus.

    3. Nancy becomes President on January 21. Seriously, you know damn good and well, that Trump is going to have to be cuffed and physically removed from the White House. Sorry, but I see blood in the streets. Let me be perfectly clear, it's been 52 years since Vietnam and I finally had to go buy a GD gun. I had to arm TF up and I'm not happy about it. And not because of ANTIFA, but because of the militias and nazi groups running around playing GI Joe. These scum are too stupid to become Police Officers and too chicken shit to enlist. It's time to disarm them and the rest of the country. Ban all assault weapons, high capacity magazines and silencers. Do it state by state by referendum and city by city. Oh, and start with the schools. If government buildings can be gun free, why not the children in school?

    4. Eventually the dollars' reserve status goes away but maybe not in the immediate future.

    5. feh. Liz Warren is our best hope at the Treasury.

    6. Nope. They'll keep pumping air in the the balloon that's full of holes and until #4 comes to pass.

    and 7. Something bad happening. The Black Swan event that we're not aware of yet. How about war with China? Trump is desperate and when an animal is cornered they can be very dangerous.

    That all said, congratulations to all of you that have figured a way to ride this bull and make some money. A lot of money has been made. NOW PROTECT IT.

    and so it goes,

    peace and wear the damn mask,

    rono


  • edited September 2020
    Bankruptcy and unemployment. It is commonly said that consumer spending drives seventy percent of the economy.
    the economy so far has replaced only about 9 million of the 22 million jobs lost to the coronavirus pandemic.

    [ellipses]

    Ranked by assets, bankruptcy filings this year have already surpassed the financial crisis year of 2008, according to BankruptcyData, which tracks business bankruptcies.
  • I see the US market really "priced for perfection" and to stay up a lot of things have to go right.

    I think only about a third of the SP stocks are up for the year and most of the gains are FAANMG. Consequently if anything happens to get people to stop paying 50 to 300 times earnings for these things, it will be all downhill.

    The market is up because 1) Federal reserve says it keep rates at zero for years, therefore increasing the market multiple ( currently at dot.com levels) 2) Stimulus bill kept consumer buying up 3) Belief that an effective vaccine is soon to come

    For this to continue we have to see

    1) Earnings meet the baked in assumptions of $165 S&P 500 2021 earnings
    and $185 2022

    2) No delayed, double-dip recession ie no resurgence of Covid this fall with the flu. I think this requires a vaccine that is at least 70% effective and most people get it. This is unlikely by December. Still it will be years before Hotels and airplanes are back at 2019 levels.

    3) Low inflation and continued Fed easy easy money. What if they finally wise up to the fact that zero interest rates do not increase employment, just inflate stock prices, leaving millions in the dust ? Look at "taper tantrum"

    4) No major second Black Swan. Candidates shooting war in China, massive defaults in Chinese banking system ( all very possible) or something totally unexpected ie 9.0 earthquake Major hack taking down electrical grid etc etc

    5) Major fight over close election with Trump getting support form the military to stay in office and blood in the streets, or military having to remove him in shooting war with right wing nuts
  • edited September 2020
    Why the big downturn today? Poor selling data, uncertainties in market, large unemployment numbers...?
    Much needed overdue corrections? Will it go 10-15% lower?
  • The vaccine 'promise' won't matter because at this point, not enough people are going to take it. feh. Wifey and I got our flu shots day before yesterday, but I won't get a Covid-19 shot at least until fall of 2021 and maybe not then. I no longer trust anything coming out of Washington and the FDA. Any vaccine they approve will be on a scale with injecting rat poison or drinking bleach. I did hear someone suggest paying Americans $1000 each to get the shot and this is actually a very good idea. You get immunization AND stimulate Aggregate Demand.
    The COVID-19 vaccine will first made available to the frontline workers including the ER's doctors and nurses, firemen and police, teachers, and military personnel. Hopefully there is sufficient dosage for the general population. There are a number of vaccine candidates which passed Phase II trial on human safety and efficacy. Moderna and Pfizer are in Phase III testing now involving 30-50K patients. It will take time to sort out the data before they launch to make billions of dosages and distribute them to the general population. It is also likely several different vaccines will be available to ensure robustness of the immunization program. Question is can the manufacturers deliver the vaccines on a timely basis?

    As I stated before i will take the COVID vaccine when It is available. We took the flu vaccines several ago. The coming fall and winter will drive people indoor which could make the COVID situation worse.
  • @johnN, today's sell off is due to tech sector pull back which is long overdue anyway. Also Fed reported uneven recovery. Who know what is next ?
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