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Bonds - let the outflows begin?

edited January 2013 in Fund Discussions
Ominous, real ominous ramblings about a sooner than expected ending for QE emanating from the Fed minutes today. Ominous price action yesterday and today in 10 and 30 year Treasuries. It could get even more ominous tomorrow if the jobs number are an upside surprise. If necessary, does everyone have an exit plan or at least a partial exit plan for their bond holdings?

Edit: Guess I should mention since I am all into bonds (PONDX) that I have a volatility stop based on a decline equal to the largest percentage decline of the past 12 months (after adjusting for year end distributions)

Comments

  • Funny that you should ask- a few minutes ago I just moved 80% of ACITX (American Century Inflation Adjusted Bond Fund) to TWSMX (AC Strategic Allocation), a balanced fund.

    In December I had already whittled down our American Fund bond funds significantly.

    We're now at cash/43%, bonds/22% and equity/35%. This is both the lowest for bond funds and the highest for equity funds that we have been at for several years now.

    (Background info: 70's, retired, no debt, pensions & SS adequate for ongoing expenses, so far.)
  • edited January 2013
    "TLT, TBT 2:40 PM ISI Group isn't buying it, telling clients to fade any market moves predicated on a more hawkish Fed, even if we get a strong employment report on Friday. The hawkish remarks are from the same meeting where it was decided to add $45B/month in QE! [Quick Ideas] Comment!"

    http://seekingalpha.com/currents/all

  • edited January 2013
    I'd be astonished at any sudden unexpected Fed moves- too much at stake here for them to pull any major surprises. But I do think that the medium-term will see the beginnings of a mind-set change.

    The problem isn't so much the Fed as Mr. Market yelling "Fire!" and everyone running for the doors at the same time. Now that could be nasty.
  • edited January 2013
    I said a few years ago that QE will continue and continue, as I believed (and still believe) that once this was the chosen path, it was going to be difficult/unlikely to get off of it. I'd love to see any sort of exit plan from the Fed. I don't believe that will appear for a very, very (very) long time.
  • I think the Fed will ease its way off of QE. What I have in domestic bonds is just in DLFNX, at just 2.58% of total, and it's spitting out monthly dividends. Guess I'll hold on for the ride.
  • ...And oh, ya. I own MAPOX, a domestic balanced fun. About one-third in bonds.
  • Evening,

    Away from the ranch and the pc most of today.
    The long duration end of bonds were a bit poof today, eh? Below is a quick list of some areas.
    EMB -0.09%
    TIPZ -0.58%
    STPZ -0.02%
    LTPZ -1.68%
    LQD -0.54%
    IEF -0.50%
    TLT -1.36%

    Generally, the most favorable area today between equity and bonds were the high yield bond sector funds, ranging roughly about +.25% higher.

    Our TIPs holdings, which function as our cash holdling area; got whacked about -.50% today. We will watch for further negative action on Friday morning and may indeed sell down some of these holdings again. We do not hold any funds directly related to long duration bonds; aside from whatever may be parked inside of some other bond funds.

    Hopefully, a bit more time on Friday for a chat. Six o'clock in the morning will be here too soon; sign off I must.

    Regards,
    Catch
  • edited January 2013
    As others occasionally note, the world of bonds is a widely diverse one. I sometimes wonder whether in the lowest-quality realms they should be called "bonds" at all, as the term presents a potentially misleading representation to uneducated investors. Be that as it may, the term encompasses a realm about as diverse as going from row-boat to house-boat to world-class America's Cup racing yacht. I've linked an article from last July when the benchmark 10-year Treasury apparently bottomed at under 1.5% - an historic low. This morning it was quoted as high as 1.94% - but has since backed off. (Apparently the jobs number wasn't as frothy as feared.) Be that as it may, a few knowledgeable board members, like FundAlarm, have done a good job in the past explaining how small moves in bond yield translate into big moves in value for longer duration treasuries and other rate-sensitive bonds.

    Most high yield funds are not particularly rate sensitive. The valuations of high-yield bonds and some mortgage-backed securities depend largely on the ability of the borrower to repay. As this generally relates to the economy's overall health, that's one reason these securities tend to track equities more closely than they do interest rates. In the case of PRHYX, which I jettisoned a month ago, the fund leans to the conservative side, normally holding 5-10% in long term Treasuries. For this reason, more conservative "high yield" funds like PRHYX may be impacted by swings in the Treasury market more than others.

    My view is the economy will continue to slog along and not return to the "great recession" lows anytime soon. In this case, long term interest rates should trend higher in the coming decade(s). However, nothing moves in a straight line. There will be periods ranging from months to entire years when rates will retrench. However, IMHO longer duration Treasuries and higher quality dollar denominated bonds are not a good place to be for the long term - though successful fund managers may navigate the waters with limited success.

    I've long held that lower grade bonds are a shaky investment - as many investors are not aware of the risks inherent here and have piled in under the false notion that "a bond is a bond" - attaining a false sense of comfort from this notion. That said, I greatly respect the power and inertia of "bubbles" of all types, so would expect the lower end bonds to run awhile longer (several more months) until some unknown "hiccup" - economic or otherwise - causes them to falter. At that point, it may be too late to safetly exit. (As noted, I've already sold.)

    My bond holdings are quite limited - mainly falling within these areas: (1) those held through balanced funds, (2) floating rate funds, (3) international bond funds (4) diversified income funds like RPSIX and DODIX. All are relatively "safer" alternatives. However, all are susceptible to some degree to any carnage in bond-land if and when it occurs. I'd fully expect a fund like DODIX so suffer mild losses over shorter periods of a year or two - but to hold up reasonably well over longer terms as managers continually buy and sell in the changing interest rate environment. In this case, their diversification, higher credit quality, and relatively short durations will be assets.

    Oh - a note on the Fed. They'll "talk the talk". It's called jaw-boning and is a tried and tested way to move markets one way or another - without really having to do anything. To some extent, it involves floating "trial balloons" to help them gage investor reaction to potential policy shifts. So, the talk has value - especially to the Fed - but should always be taken with a "grain of salt" by investors. There's a lot of pressure on the Fed to abandon their stimulative stance (One need only read some of the comments here at MFO.) They're trying to balance policy "accommodation" - as they call it - with political reality. When they think it's reasonably safe to withdraw stimulus they'll be most happy to do so - not withstanding past pronouncements (which I've previously likened as "not worth a cup of warm spit".) Enough said!

    Treasuries hit record low yields (July 2012) http://buzz.money.cnn.com/2012/07/16/10-year-yield-slumps-to-record-low/
  • edited January 2013
    A wee reality check: only 3+ months ago, Sept. 14-21, the S&P 500 was closing at these levels, in the 1460s. The peak closing yield for the 30Y T then was 3.09%. The peak closing yield so far in this mini-cycle has been 3.11%.

    We've seen this movie before, and the sky didn't fall, so why is it absolutely inevitable that it will this time around? Just as, in 2004-2006, interest rates went up and core bond funds still made money, and then? Interest rates went down again. Sure, stocks are always good to have in a long-term portfolio ... but so are bond funds, of the diversified species.

    To diversify the opinion here a bit, Gundlach said the other day that tactical interest-rate decline plays are beginning to look interesting.
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