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High Yield Closed End Bond Funds question for the learned

During 08-09 some of these funds sold off substantially to all time lows/discounts with 20% yields. If an investor were lucky enough to buy them then, should the funds be sold at large profits or held forever? (thinking the NAV may never go that low again and yields may never go that high again). The consensus is sell because once the funds recover you are getting 8-10 years worth of dividends in the profit. However, if you do sell, you are now faced with establishing a new cost basis to provide income during those 8 years that is near impossible to replicate. Thoughts?

Comments

  • Ignoring tax issues, IMHO always mark to market (i.e. look at current prices).

    Say you bought a share for $40 that was yielding 20%, and it is now selling for $100, yielding 8% (same $8 interest, just divided by a higher current price).

    You've got a $60 gain, whether you choose to realize it or not. You've also got something worth $100. The question you're faced with (again, ignoring taxes) is: where is the best place for that $100?

    If you were to buy another bond fund with similar risk (duration, credit quality), it would have a similar yield. If you're happy with your current investment's risk/reward characteristics, keep it - swapping for something else won't accomplish much.

    But if you think that you want to get out of the bond market, or get something with shorter duration (expecting rates to increase), they you should consider taking that $100 and buying something shorter term, or cash. (Or if you want to get into equities, go there.)

    The point is what I said at the start - you've got the profit now, whether you choose to realize it or not. The choice is not so much whether to sell or not, as it is where you want to put the current value of your investment - where it is now, or somewhere else.
  • msf, agreed. Another thought...even if a bear market emerged and your NAV dropped to $55 from $100, (at a 20% cost basis yield) you would double your money ever 5 years perhaps negating the risk of holding through the $45/share loss. IOW's would this be approached differently if an investor never believed his $40 cost basis would ever be breached? I am looking at my old research notes from the depth of 2008. HYV was yielding 22.9% DHF 21.3% SBW 16% HYT 22.1%. Incredible. I am not recommending the funds. No need to comment on the funds...simply examples of yields during that brief period of time. The one caveat is cuts in dividend thru economic cycles.
  • "...(at a 20% cost basis yield) you would double your money ever 5 years..." At a 20% return per year, you would more than double your money every 4 years (1.2 raised to the 4th power equals 2.07+).

  • Tony, thank you.
  • Again ignoring tax consequences, what's past is past and the only thing you can affect is the future. The question is, would you buy this CEF today or would you buy something else instead? If you'd buy the CEF, naturally there's no reason to sell it, you already have it. If you'd buy something else instead then sell the CEF and use the proceeds.

    And I emphasize that if there are any tax consequences, they must be taken into account.
  • edited July 2016
    i did, in practice, purchased several CEFs during 2008/2009, which made for a significant return in the following years. they consequently moved to premia and i had to exchange them for what i thought was a better relative value. each year, different class of CEFs is underpriced (while 2008/9 it was the entire universe). 2011 saw a huge downdrift in munis. 2012 affected not-agency RMBS. 2013 was unkind to all income producing stuff, most of which just recently recovered. preferreds stayed down for two years before rallying in 2016. right now, there is little value in CEFs as discounts approach those in 2012, i.e. non-existing... i have sold a few, but am still long a bunch...the question is always, if you sell what are you reinvesting in? when everything is expensive (except for some 'real asset' stuff) I just stay the course with the existing positions and some dry powder.
  • lets put some bad math to it. Bought 7000 shares at $7 in 2008. Rose to$17 in 2013. Roughly $70k profit plus $10k/yr in dividends (@20% yield) = $120k. The fund is choppy up and down since $17 peak but lowest it goes is $10. So at $10/sh I got $21K cap gain plus $50k dividends (not reinvested)= $71k plus $10k/yr for the foreseeable future. I get 20% yield at a $7 cost basis that will be tough to create a cap loss, while others get 8-10% yield reinvested in a new fund plus the chance of buying the wrong fund at the wrong time at a loss. At what point (timeframe) do I overtake the people who wanted to sell at $17 and attempted to reinvest? By now all you math majors are cringing at my mistakes, but you get my point. 401k so no taxes. You would be able to buy more shares of the new funds with the $120k profit if you sold. This would be a good website calculator ....assuming a constant share price and yield of the new fund purchased for the sake of answering the timeframe question.
  • You're getting lost in the weeds.

    Here's a simple math problem to illustrate: Two trains are 100 miles apart, each traveling at 50 MPH. A bee, flying at 100 MPH starts at the first train, flies to the second train, reverses direction until getting back to the first, and so on, until it is squashed between the trains. How far does the bee fly?

    One could calculate the sum of the infinite series of flights that the bee makes from one train to another, or one could simply observe that the trains meet in an hour, in which time the 100MPH bee will have traveled 100 miles.

    Same idea here. You could calculate how much you'd make with what investments with what trades at what times, or you could simply ask: with the $70K you have now (7000 @ $10), what is the better investment - the fund you're in or a different fund? You could be holding the wrong fund at the wrong time whether that's the fund you currently own or a different fund.

    Your numbers do help with this decision. Consider: if your fund is currently yielding 14% ($10K/year on $70K market value), and the alternative funds are currently yielding 8%-10%, what is the market telling you?
  • My concern would be I don't think my trading skills are sufficient to double my money over a 20 year time frame every 4-5 years like my $7 cost basis provides me. Not many opportunities present themselves in the stock market to do that. My theory centers around long term compounding versus trading in and out. Dividend cuts etc would change my mind but since 2008 this one hasn't cut.
  • @Tony
    >> double your money ever 5 years... At a 20% return per year, you would more than double your money every 4 years

    Right; rule of 72 applies fairly closely except at the extremes (annual rate x years = ~72), and if you're unfamiliar with this handy notion, just google.

    In the example = ~3.6y for doubling.
  • Yes, but it's built on a dubious assumption - that returns continue at 20%/year.

    The 20% yield was based on a price of $7/share and a dividend of $1.40/year (20%). As stated above, the price now never drops below $10/share, and the dividends (dollar amount) remains fixed "for the foreseeable future".

    That means that the best yield one can achieve on the earnings is 14% (reinvesting dividends at a min of $10/share, getting $1.40/share). So while the initial shares continue to yield 20% (based on initial purchase price, disregarding appreciation), compounding occurs at a much lower (blended) rate.

    Rule of 72 assumes that returns can be reinvested at the same rate of return. By hypothesis that's not the case here.
  • Based on my initial investment of 7000 shares at $7/sh = $49k I would be getting $9800 each year in dividends. My cost basis would never change and my dividends would never change. The interest earned is not reinvested in shares. All income is held in cash in money market yielding zero.
    I think the area we are ignoring that would have the biggest impact is that if I sold at $17, I would be able to buy more shares (deriving more income) from the new fund purchased although at lower yields, but all of that would be at risk of loss if the share price dropped below my newly established cost basis. The chance of a capital loss at cost basis of $7 is near zero so from a portfolio management standpoint risk is greatly reduced and makes the decision not to sell my $7 investment much more attractive regardless of any compounding calculation. Theoretically, my portfolio value always goes higher although risks always abound.
  • Mark to market. Period.

    All that matters is what you have now, and going forward. Capital gain/loss is a tax concept that is irrelevant in a tax-sheltered vehicle.

    If you sell, risk is present whether you buy a different fund or the old fund. The latter puts you in the identical position to where you are now.
  • I have pondered this dilemma for decades. I have learned that if you ask the "should I sell my $7 cost basis" question to professional money managers or salesmen or commissioned employees or brokers, etc they will ALWAYS advise you to sell. The reason being you would lock down their clients capital forever and they no longer get commissions of any type or you don't need them as an advisor.
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