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Forbes: Ratings For 1,471 Mutual Funds

TedTed
edited June 2015 in Fund Discussions
FYI: (Unfortunately the printer-friendly version won't link, you need to click on pages 2 &3 at bottom of thje first page)

How well is your fund doing? You can get a straight-line performance number—past five years or past ten—out of the annual report. But if this is all you look at you are getting a warped view. The winners on this simplistic scorecard are simply the funds whose style matches whatever kind of market prevailed in the recent past.
Regards,
Ted
http://www.forbes.com/sites/baldwin/2015/06/26/ratings-for-1471-mutual-funds/print/

Comments

  • Thanks; fascinating. Serious surprises re CGMFX and PRBLX, for me.
  • david, you mean the D rating of PRBLX in up markets? I think I remember right that Forbes used to have it as a C/A, so if that's correct it's gone down one notch for up markets. Not really a surprise; it's been dragging along for the past year or so, with (imho) some not-so-good holds and buys in energy & utilities.

    Plus, the AUM have ballooned to $12B, and the real strength of it (besides being about as recession-resistant as a stock fund could be) has been in Ahlsten's mid-small picks, and it may be getting harder to move the needle with those, with so much $ in the fund now.
  • Sort of. These take the waay longer view than the last year. So I don't know.

    But now I don't know how good any of this work is. I just checked out FDVLX, WWNPX, HFCSX, DEFIX, and RSPFX on Lipper, and for preservation most are 2s with a couple of 4s! Wtf?? Also, Forbes does not take into account tenure or longevity; none of these funds has a current manager responsible for any good avoidance back when. So a useless and misleading piece so far as I can see. Wow.
  • Their system has Aegis Value as a a"Bear Market defender" rated A+
    Return in 2008: -51.4%
  • edited June 2015
    I just scrolled down through the P's, R's, and S's (since I started on the Parnassus page), looking at a fund here & there with decent (mostly A) rankings on down-market performance, and several of them are hugely at odds with M* risk ratings.

    My comment about PRBLX was based on what I remember as a one-notch change in the up-market rating, the timing of which seemed to coincide with recent underperformance. I didn't see any explanation of weighting of recent vs. long-term results, but didn't look too hard either.
  • This Site Is Far Better Than Any Magazine That Writes About Mutual Funds
  • "none of these funds has a current manager responsible for any good avoidance back when"

    Their methodology specifically requires results over "two market cycles", so obviously there will be a lot of manager changes during that time. If they added continuity of management to the mix the list would be pretty short, I would guess.
  • >> obviously there will be a lot of manager changes during that time.

    Sure, except when there aren't (Tillinghast, Ahlsten, Yacks, those are the ones I know). Has TWEIX changed managers?

    A useless piece, and worse, the more I think about it. LB's comment above is astonishing.

    What is the opposite of alpha? Downside protection due to, what, style box.

    >> If they added continuity of management to the mix the list would be pretty short, I would guess.

    And the only thing that means anything. I mean, I am not gonna buy Celtics tickets this month based on how good they were with Pierce and Garnett and Allen. Much less Bird and McHale. Who thinks like that? As if putting on the uniform means anything.

    I have thrown over a third of my lot with DSENX, so will be able to report in flaming glory how it does the next serious slump, and after.
  • "LB's comment above is astonishing." For sure.

    The thing that I can't quite figure is if that data is in fact so flawed, how does Forbes manage to survive? Surely there are lots of capable commentators in the professional competition- wouldn't you expect them to gang up on Forbes and hang this stuff out to dry?
  • I think the message is if you got one of the two bubbles right you're a star, so Aegis Value did great when the market crashed after the internet bubble and didn't fare so well with the credit crisis, but apparently getting one out of two right was good enough for top 5%. Not that it would have been easy but isn't the real problem that almost no one got both of these bubbles right?
  • edited June 2015
    @LLJB You are correct and there is an important lesson in this. The type of bubble and the type of crash determines which funds will hold up in a big way. 2000-02 was a valuation driven crash in which there was a huge valuation gap between value and growth stocks, in particular small-cap value and dot.com stocks. So funds like Aegis Value held up well. 2008 was a credit driven crash and value stocks which are often weaker sometimes overleveraged stocks did terribly while high quality low leverage growth at a reasonable price blue chips faired better. Also, prior to 2008 I don't think the valuation gap between growth and value stocks was particularly wide. So the key to winning in the next crash will to be to figure out what kind of bubble we are in or entering and what kind of crash we will end up having. A credit or macro-economic driven crash will probably hurt weak value stocks--think energy stocks right now--while one driven by frothy overvalued stocks--think Biotech--finally popping will make value look like a winner again.
  • beebee
    edited June 2015
    @LLJB and @LewisBraham...Wonder if any research has been done with regard to funds that quickly recover from MaxDD? Its the recover time that causes prolonged sleeplessness for most investors.

    A market meltdown causes one form of insomnia, but funds with prolonged slow recovery time from MaxDD turns patient investors into financial zombies. Talking from experience here.

    I now look for managers and funds that have shorter recovery time from MaxDD.

    MFO's @Charles discusses/explains Recovery Time here:
    Thanks Charles

    Research paper on Subject:
    Risk Management : Using SAS to Model Portfolio Drawdown,
    Recovery, and Value at Risk
  • I'm sticking with what I've mostly owned like PRBLX, MWEIX, OAKGX, POGRX, VEIPX etc. because in the long run, they will be winners and I care less what the media is saying.
  • Fairholme gets an A+ during down markets?
  • Bee, you have been an advocate for recovery time after big down turns. Can I ask what funds you own that have performed well at that aspect?
  • beebee
    edited June 2015
    MikeM said:

    Bee, you have been an advocate for recovery time after big down turns. Can I ask what funds you own that have performed well at that aspect?

    Advocating is one thing. Pulling off this feat is a work in progress. All I can muster is that my motivation for identifying these kinds of fund is based on the fact that a 50% decline in any investment requires it to produce an 100% profit just to break even.

    Which funds bounce back quicker than the next in their category?

    My "wholly grail" is incomplete, but it includes my personal experience with:

    The 2007-2009 MaxDD & recovery time for this fund was comforting:

    YACKX - LC Value
    image

    Other funds that lose less therefore need to make up less:

    PRWCX & BRUFX _ Moderate Allocation
    VWINX - Conservative Allocation
    POAGX - MC Growth
    PONDX - Multisector Bond
    GASFX - Utilities
    PRMTX - Tech
    PRHSX - Health Care
    MAPIX - Asian Income

    Definitely could use some help if you or others are offering.;)
  • What about next time ? Will it act the same. Probably not !
    Derf
  • beebee
    edited June 2015
    Derf said:

    What about next time ? Will it act the same. Probably not !
    Derf

    Thanks for baiting me. Lets look at this fund (YACKX) over the last two bubble drops:

    Allow me to "cherry pick" a moment in time that would have been unfavorable for YACKX if mentioned at a cocktail party held back in March of 2008.

    March 1998:
    "So Bee, What the "buzz" on your hot tech stocks these days?"
    "Buy Value, not growth"


    Two years later the same acquaintance at a much swankier cocktail party asks in
    March 2000:
    "So Bee, how's that YACKX working out for you?"

    Fast forward to 2015:
    (If I hadn't fallen off the cocktail party list for this spring's soiree) I'd say,
    "Pretty good"

    My Take:
    Value often falls out of favor because it's not considered "hot" or "flashy".

    Value really fell out of favor in (March 1998) as (Tech Growth) continued to elevate for another two years (May 2000). Even with that under performance, value has held up better than growth long term.

    YACKX has had a value matrix that has worked,

    "But what about next time?"

    I'll fall asleep thinking,

    "Probably."

    image
  • I am surprised that anyone follows these anymore. With all the information that is available online, and the fact that Forbes readership, like all print media, is shrinking, this ends up being just another of hundreds of MF lists. 25-30 years ago, before online data was available, these had some value. Sort of like the lists in Kiplinger and Money magazines, this is just not worth the time. Like other lists, the rankings, grades, stars have different calculations from each other. I question a lot of the list that I quickly scanned, just like I disagree with most of what the other publications tour as "The Best", and "What to Buy NOW."
  • @BobC, agree. These info and their rating are really dated.
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