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Is there a site that gives 1 to 10 year returns on funds and stocks if dividends NOT reinvested?
Morningstar and several other financial sites produce returns based upon the investment's dividends being reinvested. Is there a site that either allows you to choose whether dividends are reinvested before producing the desired return results, or that simply gives returns that are NOT based on dividends being reinvested? I would really appreciate a link if you know of a site that can do that.
Don't know about a link haven't researched it. But... Do you mean dividends AND capital gains not reinvested. If you mean no reinvestments than just compare the current NAV or original stock price 1 and 10 years ago.
Actually, I think many of the comparison graphs on return are based just on Net Asset Value, or they used to be.
It would be simple to do in an excel spreadsheet.
(Cur Nav - Orig nav)/100 (11 -10)/100= 10% for fund that had a $10 value at the beginning of the period and $11 at the end of the period.
if you want annualized return than you could add further calculations.
I'm not sure, either, what you're looking for. Consider a bond that is purchased at par, and the interest rate never shifts, so that its market value (NAV, if you wish) remains constant.
If you just look at NAV, your return is zero. Certainly for an interest-paying bond, your return is not zero - even if you don't "reinvest" you coupon payments. So I question what looking at NAV alone tells you. There's a difference between saying that the dividends are not reinvested and the dividends don't exist. NAV calculations assume the latter.
But there are dividends. If you don't reinvest them, then what happens to them? Does the cash sit under a mattress? If so, then your return is reduced, but not to zero. For example, consider a bond paying 2%. You buy it at $1000, each year it pays $20. At the end of 10 years, you have a $1000 bond and $200 cash sitting in your mattress. That's $1200 in 10 years, for an effective rate of 1.84%. (That is, if you have a $1000 investment that yields 1.84%/year, then after 10 years of compounding, you'll have $1200).
So for this simple investment (2% coupon bond, always trading at par value), what's the rate of return? 2%, 0%, 1.84%, something else? Most of the responses suggest the answer is 0%. That seems wrong to me, but I can't give you an answer that's meaningful.
Reply to @Accipiter: Thank you for your input, Accipiter. Yes, I meant if all distributions were taken in cash during the course of the investment, which would mean the cost basis of the investment was just the original cost. It does seem like a simple calculation, but I've been really foggy lately so wanted to verify.
Reply to @Maurice: Thanks, Maurice. I'm also glad that M*'s calculations include reinvestments, especially since I reinvest all in my Portfolios. But, in this case, I wanted to calculate the returns if all distributions were taken in cash, which would mean those cash distributions would have to be included in returns - but the cost basis would not change. I'll check out the Historical Pricing in Yahoo Finance - thanks!
Reply to @msf: Thanks for your details, msf. Your example is the idea I was looking for - I just didn't put it very well. In the case I was asking about, the dividends are paid out as cash - and spent by the investment recipient. So those distributions needed to be included in the gain/loss of the total (and annualized) returns, and I took the easiest, lazy course of how to do that by asking here. So much has been going on lately in the market and U.S/World concerns that being a little overwhelmed by it all has made my reasoning powers deteriorate substantially.
If you don't reinvest divs or cap gain and spend it.
the return would be as follows:
shares x nav = original investment 100 x $10.00 = $1000.00 orig investment is $1000
total amount of investment return on 8/1/11 would be
shares x (current unadjusted NAV) + DIVS and CG not reinvested. 100 x $11 ( +$23+$35+$30 ) = $1100.00+ ($23+35+$30) = $1188 investment is now worth $1100 (plus the dividends of $88 that you spent)
orig - now = increase in dollars $1188-$1000 = $188
increase/100 $188/1000 = .0188 = 18.8% gain since original purchase. ================================================
if you let the dividends accumulate and repurchase div $ amount divided by nav price
Reply to @Accipiter: Thank you so much, Accipiter, for taking so much of your time to break down the differences for me! Your specific examples really help! I am so grateful to you, and all the others in this Forum who have also taken a lot of time to help me understand. THANK YOU ALL!
The reason why you get feedback is because you provide good feedback and give the impression that you want to learn
on second thought:
cut and paste everything in between the lines below into a file called cathy.csv and save it somewhere you can find it. The name has to end (the extension) in .csv But the first part can be any name you want. Then click on the file and if should produce a spreadsheet for you assuming you have spread sheet software
You can modify investments and reinvestments, and if you insert lines in the spreadsheet and copy formulas you can add more lines for investments. you can autoformat columns to see headings. Modify the dates, navs, investment amounts, and dividends for your particular investment and the spreadsheet will do the rest. Obviously reinvesting when the NAV is higher on the reinvestment date than the current date will prove to show you would have made more money by not reinvesting and vice-versa.
Differences between reinvesting and not reinvesting. ---------------------------------cut below here --------------------------------- date,investments,number of shares from investment, NAV, DIV, total reinvested shares, value/wo reinvestment, value w/ reinvestment 1/1/09,1000,=B2/D2,10,,=C2,=(C2*D2)+SUM($E$2:D2),=F2*D2 6/1/09,0,=C2+B3/D3,10.5,23,=F2+(E3/D3)+(B3/D3),=(C3*D3)+SUM($E$2:E3),=F3*D3 1/1/10,0,=C3+B4/D4,10.25,,=F3+(E4/D4)+(B4/D4),=(C4*D4)+SUM($E$2:E4),=F4*D4 6/1/10,0,=C4+B5/D5,10,35,=F4+(E5/D5)+(B5/D5),=(C5*D5)+SUM($E$2:E5),=F5*D5 1/1/11,1000,=C5+B6/D6,10.4,,=F5+(E6/D6)+(B6/D6),=(C6*D6)+SUM($E$2:E6),=F6*D6 6/1/11,0,=C6+B7/D7,10.7,30,=F6+(E7/D7)+(B7/D7),=(C7*D7)+SUM($E$2:E7),=F7*D7 8/1/11,0,=C7+B8/D8,11,,=F7+(E8/D8)+(B8/D8),=(C8*D8)+SUM($E$2:E8),=F8*D8
total invested,=SUM($B$2:$B$8) % total return,=(H8-B10)/10 % total return /wo reinvesting,=(G8-B10)/10 ---------------------------------to here------------------------------------------
Reply to @Accipiter: THANK YOU SO MUCH, Accipiter! The interesting thing I found out about learning is that I realized I have to learn in small, incremental steps. When I first started reading FA and other investment information, I had no idea what 99% of it actually meant. So no matter how many times I would re-read something, I never absorbed it. I seemed to learn so little in the first 6 months that it was very discouraging. Then I started to understand some of the basic concepts - and all of a sudden my learning curve became exponetially greater - learning more became so much easier. It delights me now when I can actually understand so much more of what I read.
I had a little trouble at first getting your data into Excel as neither my Notepad or Word, etc. would let me save copied text as .csv file. So I just saved as text, then told Excel to import as delimited comma - worked like a charm! I haven't reviewed it closely yet - Excel showing 2 of the cell formulas with error messages but I know enough about Excel to figure out the problem. THANKS SO much for taking the time to create this for me!
I don't know what the recent windows programs do, but there used to be an option for filetype which should be text - which means don't put any special formatting in. So it should be saved with a filetype text with a .csv extension. The .csv extension is just a suffix to the file name that indicates to the os what program to use to open it. So if you click on something that has an hrml it sends it to your browser, a .doc goes to word or your word processor. the .pdf signifies a pdf reader like adobe acrobat and so on. The newer versions of windows have options in the view to show file extensions or to hide them. The default now is to hide them, - to me it makes it actually more difficult to do things, so if I work on somebody's machine I always change the view to show file extensions. The formulas may have a problem if you inserted extra lines in the text file. The 1/1/09 should be in row 2 on your spreadsheet. %total return is in row 11. Row 12 should be the last row with % wo reinvesting. Glad it kind of works for you, and maybe this will help you decipher the problem with the two cells.
Reply to @Accipiter: Thanks for your follow-up, Accipiter. I have had Windows show hidden files, and file extensions, which I agree is important - especially if you're looking for something. I'm sure there will be no problem locating the discrepancy in the two cells - I'll check them out after my advisor appointment.
Comments
Do you mean dividends AND capital gains not reinvested. If you mean no reinvestments than
just compare the current NAV or original stock price 1 and 10 years ago.
Actually, I think many of the comparison graphs on return are based just on Net Asset Value, or they used to be.
It would be simple to do in an excel spreadsheet.
(Cur Nav - Orig nav)/100
(11 -10)/100= 10% for fund that had a $10 value at the beginning of the period and $11 at the end of the period.
if you want annualized return than you could add further calculations.
If you just look at NAV, your return is zero. Certainly for an interest-paying bond, your return is not zero - even if you don't "reinvest" you coupon payments. So I question what looking at NAV alone tells you. There's a difference between saying that the dividends are not reinvested and the dividends don't exist. NAV calculations assume the latter.
But there are dividends. If you don't reinvest them, then what happens to them? Does the cash sit under a mattress? If so, then your return is reduced, but not to zero. For example, consider a bond paying 2%. You buy it at $1000, each year it pays $20. At the end of 10 years, you have a $1000 bond and $200 cash sitting in your mattress. That's $1200 in 10 years, for an effective rate of 1.84%. (That is, if you have a $1000 investment that yields 1.84%/year, then after 10 years of compounding, you'll have $1200).
So for this simple investment (2% coupon bond, always trading at par value), what's the rate of return? 2%, 0%, 1.84%, something else? Most of the responses suggest the answer is 0%. That seems wrong to me, but I can't give you an answer that's meaningful.
The reason why you get feedback is because you provide good feedback and give the impression that you want to learn
on second thought:
cut and paste everything in between the lines below into a file called cathy.csv and save it somewhere you can find it.
The name has to end (the extension) in .csv But the first part can be any name you want.
Then click on the file and if should produce a spreadsheet for you assuming you have spread sheet software
You can modify investments and reinvestments, and if you insert lines in the spreadsheet and copy formulas you can add more lines for investments. you can autoformat columns to see headings. Modify the dates, navs, investment amounts, and dividends for your particular investment and the spreadsheet will do the rest. Obviously reinvesting when the NAV is higher on the reinvestment date than the current date will prove to show you would have made more money by not reinvesting and vice-versa.
Differences between reinvesting and not reinvesting.
---------------------------------cut below here ---------------------------------
date,investments,number of shares from investment, NAV, DIV, total reinvested shares, value/wo reinvestment, value w/ reinvestment
1/1/09,1000,=B2/D2,10,,=C2,=(C2*D2)+SUM($E$2:D2),=F2*D2
6/1/09,0,=C2+B3/D3,10.5,23,=F2+(E3/D3)+(B3/D3),=(C3*D3)+SUM($E$2:E3),=F3*D3
1/1/10,0,=C3+B4/D4,10.25,,=F3+(E4/D4)+(B4/D4),=(C4*D4)+SUM($E$2:E4),=F4*D4
6/1/10,0,=C4+B5/D5,10,35,=F4+(E5/D5)+(B5/D5),=(C5*D5)+SUM($E$2:E5),=F5*D5
1/1/11,1000,=C5+B6/D6,10.4,,=F5+(E6/D6)+(B6/D6),=(C6*D6)+SUM($E$2:E6),=F6*D6
6/1/11,0,=C6+B7/D7,10.7,30,=F6+(E7/D7)+(B7/D7),=(C7*D7)+SUM($E$2:E7),=F7*D7
8/1/11,0,=C7+B8/D8,11,,=F7+(E8/D8)+(B8/D8),=(C8*D8)+SUM($E$2:E8),=F8*D8
total invested,=SUM($B$2:$B$8)
% total return,=(H8-B10)/10
% total return /wo reinvesting,=(G8-B10)/10
---------------------------------to here------------------------------------------
I had a little trouble at first getting your data into Excel as neither my Notepad or Word, etc. would let me save copied text as .csv file. So I just saved as text, then told Excel to import as delimited comma - worked like a charm! I haven't reviewed it closely yet - Excel showing 2 of the cell formulas with error messages but I know enough about Excel to figure out the problem. THANKS SO much for taking the time to create this for me!
I don't know what the recent windows programs do, but there used to be an option for filetype which should be text - which means don't put any special formatting in. So it should be saved with a filetype text with a .csv extension.
The .csv extension is just a suffix to the file name that indicates to the os what program to use to open it. So if you click on something that has an hrml it sends it to your browser, a .doc goes to word or your word processor. the .pdf signifies a pdf reader like adobe acrobat and so on. The newer versions of windows have options in the view to show file extensions or to hide them. The default now is to hide them, - to me it makes it actually more difficult to do things, so if I work on somebody's machine I always change the view to show file extensions. The formulas may have a problem if you inserted extra lines in the text file. The 1/1/09 should be in row 2 on your spreadsheet. %total return is in row 11. Row 12 should be the last row with % wo reinvesting.
Glad it kind of works for you, and maybe this will help you decipher the problem with the two cells.