I've been trying to get my Mom's large family Trust run by USB to lower this Portfolio's risk factor, which STILL holds over 75% in U.S. and foreign stocks, with a larger than S&P percentage of Energy, Materials and Industrials - the three sectors most dependent on economic growth. Since all the Primary Beneficiaries of this Trust are in their 80's, long retired and dependent upon income and capital conservation, the risk factor seems way out of line (especially since I read that their neighboring Leuthold Group in Minneapolis recently slashed stocks from 63% to 45% of its portfolios). One of USB's most recent investments (end 2010 and several more buys 2011) are substantial amounts in the above, which they list under their "Misc Assets-Non-Real Estate Partnership/LLC. I have no idea what this is. Does anyone here know if this investment is a good and safe one to make to help buffer losses in this large equity percentage portfolio?
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However, if - as I noted in another thread - we get none of that and the cards are allowed to fall however they may, then all bets are off as I believe that scenario could be worse than 2008. The end result either way isn't - I think - going to be good.
I had no idea what IDRs are. I tried searching for the specific investment, but got nowhere. When I tried searching just IDR's, I found "Indian Depository Receipts," saying "India-listed securities issued against underlying equity shares of foreign companies. IDRs work just like Global Depository Receipts or American Depository Receipts — overseas-listed securities against underlying equity shares of Indian companies." Does that mean it is like a Equity Fund of companies in India? I don't even know what a Depository Receipt is, or if "Indian" ones are a "safe" investment which would be effective for lowering the risk level of a portfolio. Since they have added very substantial amounts to this investment from 12/30/10 to 3/30/11, I felt it was important that I at least have an absolute minimum understanding of what they are. Even more confusing is that the market value has remained the same as their cost for all these investments so it looks like the actual return won't be shown until 1 year after the date of investment. There was also something about a 30% TAX on dividends, etc. All this way above my head.
I don't want to take up any more of your time on questions about investments you wouldn't be interested in or would need more research to check, especially with so much else going on. I guess I was just hoping there were members here who were familiar with these enough to be able to tell me how safe they were, and if there were any negatives to owning these.
If it's some sort of private equity vehicle, I'd be interested in it (because I love alternative investments - what the London market offered in terms of alternative investments was like Christmas for me), but I would be very, very surprised to see it in the portfolio of someone near/in retirement.
Private equity (if this is private equity and again, I'd be really kind of surprised to find some sort of private equity vehicle in a retired person's account) has a tendency to be extremely volatile, especially in a 2008-style situation, but in many cases these sorts of investments are illiquid.
If a private equity vehicle (and again, I'd be really kind of surprised if they would use this sort of vehicle, especially in the account of an older person) showed up in the portfolio of an older person I knew/know, I'd be contacting the investment advisor ASAP to at least get details on why.
Edited to add:
Actually, now that I look on google, AMG is a financial company that manages private equity accounts and other investments in both the alternative and non-alternative space:
http://www.amg.com/PressReleaseDetail.aspx?id=665&m=2010
I mean, it says 'private equity' on the account report so that's probably what it is, but again, I'd just be pretty amazed to see a private equity fund in an account for someone well in retirement age (or near retirement age.)
If there's something about the value not being displayed until the investment has reached a certain period, my guess is that this may be some sort of private equity ("AMG Private Equity-Hld by Issr.") investment. I have no idea on the specific tax details - 30% - but again, it speaks to it being some sort of an unusual investment. Maybe the specific note on dividend tax was due to it being some sort of limited partnership where dividends were passed through in a similar manner to an MLP or REIT? It's hard to know without more details, but just guessing. Why mention a specific dividend tax if it was not an unusual situation? Hmmm... Weird. And to clarify, the value of this particular portion of the portfolio hasn't changed?
Any which way, I'd definitely call them ASAP to get more details, and I'd be curious what it turns out to be.
http://sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=IDR+CORE+EQUITY+RE+STRATEGY+2010,+LP&match=&CIK=&filenum=&State=&Country=&SIC=&owner=exclude&Find=Find+Companies&action=getcompany
So....it's a private pooled limited partnership vehicle investing ... most likely in real estate (core equity *RE* strategy), but it becomes in what manner is the fund investing in this asset class (equity, directly in RE, etc?) and why did the financial advisor invest in it? If it's merely equity, why not invest in one of any number of public real estate mutual funds, so I have to wonder if it's not something more complex (possibly direct RE investment?)
To go another step further, here's the company website: http://www.idrfof.com/
It seems like a somewhat smallish operation to me from the website.
So, IDR CORE EQUITY RE STRATEGY 2010 is a limited partnership pool started by Investors Diversified Reality (hence the IDR.)
The small details I dunno, but some sort of real estate pooled investment vehicle.
I don't know how "AMG Private Equity-Hld by Issr." fits in, but if it's somehow tied to the IDR investment, the real estate investments may be private and AMG was the one offering the fund? There are no details on the SEC filings that I see about the specifics of the fund.
I'm guessing the pooled/LP nature of the fund is reason for the statement on the specific dividend rate, similar to my CFD Nuveen Commodity Fund, which is a pool: "The Nuveen Diversified Commodity Fund (the “Fund”) is an actively-managed, exchange-traded commodity pool. The Fund's shares represent units of fractional undivided beneficial interest in and ownership of the Fund. The Fund is not a mutual fund, a closed-end fund, or any other type of “investment company” within the meaning of the Investment Company Act of 1940, as amended (the “1940 Act”), and is not subject to regulation thereunder." Investors in CFD get a K-1 tax form in the same way as those who invest in Master Limited Partnerships.
There may be a K-1 or other such partnership form involved here, especially if this is a vehicle that is going to be passing large distributions on to shareholders in a limited partnership structure. In other words, the limited partnership/pool nature of the fund would likely explain the unusually specific note about dividend taxation. If this is a large investment, I'd consider contacting an accountant about any requirements on how to handle tax issue/s that may arise from this investment, as there definitely may be some.
All that aside, definitely an "out there" vehicle to find its way into a trust fund for a retired person. If it's a private vehicle investing in public RE equity, why not use one of any number of good public RE mutual funds. If it's a private vehicle investing in private real estate equity, is the risk involved age-appropriate?
P.S. Is there life outside of investing? I'm just creating my new 1-mo "to do" schedule and realized that the majority of my time in the last month has been spent reading articles, links, reports, investment articles, etc. My poor garden. I'm so drained after all of that I just don't have the energy for anything else. Hope you are better able to moderate your time to regularly enjoy your favorite past times.
My concerns about taxes come from this discussion of Master Limited Partnerships and the taxation issues that could arise from holding them in a non-taxable account:
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/3249139 This investment may not be the same situation, but it is a limited partnership with a dividend taxation issue enough that it had to be mentioned in the account report.
In terms of investing, I'm to the point where I don't believe that things are headed in a good direction (to put it lightly) and if there isn't a good end result to what's going on right now, I'd rather it just happen right now so things can move on (rebuild?) instead of having to deal with what I call "Groundhog Day" economics (the same problems that were kicked down the road coming back yet again - we did QE1, a year later QE2 and a year later people are looking for QE3.)
I'm a huge fan of gardening and I think it's really not only a relaxing task in the zen of it, but a productive one. I was surprisingly successful in growing sugar substitute Stevia this year, but haven't figured out much use for it beyond putting it in tea. They sell the powered version in stores under many names, but the leaf is much better tasting. Otherwise, lettuce/cabbage/squash/peppers did well this year. Peas didn't fare well and cucumbers probably aren't working (but the great thing about gardening not working is that it's a learning experience.) Corn and some other things are possibilities next year when I think I'll ramp up gardening more than I did this year.
I envy you all your vegetable, etc. garden growing. Since 95% of my yard area is filtered shade, and much of the sun area I have is just not hot enough in our So. Calif. coastal area, all my several thousand potted plants are ornamental. I do have wonderful Blueberries and Blackberries in the very small sun area. But I have tried growing several vegetables - and the pure pleasure of harvesting and eating fresh is beyond comparison for pleasure.
Kids today would rather play Farmville on Facebook than work on an actual farm.
The further inroads technology makes into our daily lives, the further society seems to go away from the world and simple connections like gardening. As I've noted before many times in other threads, just look at the average age of farmers - last I looked it was something like 55 and heading higher. With things how they've been in the world lately, quite honestly, if I could, I'd just go move to a farm in the middle of nowhere.
Several thousand potted plants is unbelievable - that's a massive task! I'm impressed you can care for them and manage to focus on investments and other aspects of daily life.
Thanks for keeping us updated on what that investment turns out to be about - I'm just really curious what that investment is, as it just seems too esoteric to be something plain and IDR CORE EQ RE 2010 LP does appear to be a separate entity, if it is the same vehicle as the one registered at the SEC above.
I'll let you know about the IDR investment. I feel like David against Goliath in even trying to get USB to make any changes. Poor Mom's capital and quarterly distributions keep going down each year and she is 90!
Thanks so much, Scott, for helping me locate at least enough information about this investment to be able to ask pertinent questions. My priority on trying to find a really good fee-only advisor who can evaluate the portfolio and investments of these trusts has definitely accelerated. I'm just not yet sure how to evaluate the ones I can locate in initial phone calls to be able to determine which one(s) would be best for my situation. Will have to gather my thoughts in the next couple of weeks and ask members here if I am asking the right questions.
I think you can wait for the paperwork, but stuff like this: " but the investment should produce "Equity-like" returns of 7% over 10 years, but then said probably start at 1%-2%, then 5% annual (??)" is always something you should be immensely skeptical of, especially with something real estate related. If this was some sort of LP arrangement where commercial property was managed and a large portion of the proceeds went to the fundholders similar to a REIT or MLP - and it was heavily about a sizable income stream - then maybe that would be better, but then it's pretty reliant upon management and, as noted later on, this is still likely a very illiquid investment that's not without some serious risk if the commercial RE market becomes problematic again.
I don't particularly like REITs either (although I'd be interested to hear the details of their take that REITS are overvalued, but commercial RE has enough opportunities to devote a large investment to, but again, no idea what the specifics of the private fund are), but I think there are specific instances of companies that have hard-to-replace properties in very, very prime locations.
I'm actually considering going back into Brookfield Office Properties (BPO), but don't have much else of interest in terms of RE. I own Hong Kong Land, but through its parent company. In terms of specific situations, another example is a London property company I owned, which had the unique situation of owning a large chunk of the Covent Garden area (I sold that earlier this year.) Again, really unique/prime situations is the only thing I'd be interested in.
I think that even if we had a sustained recovery, retail is overbuilt in this country and technology may take away from B & M retail further. There were nearly 105,000 shopping centers-of all sizes-in the United States as of the end of 2009. How many shopping centers exist in Europe? A: In 2007 there were an estimated 5,700 shopping centers in Europe. Not perfect comparisons, but you get the idea.
I do agree with this clip on commercial real estate - it's an excellent take on the status of retail RE:
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/65589812/
I think there are likely opportunities within commercial real estate in specific sectors and areas - but is that risk right for this account? Additionally, some real estate firm in Ohio? They may be good, they may not - who knows, but their website seemed pretty basic (http://www.idrfof.com/) - the paperwork may be better, but all I have to go on is a very basic website and little else I can find. They may be great, but what I see on the surface is not real confidence inspiring.
Additionally, I just noticed this is your other thread:
"JPMorganStructured EFA 200% EFA 24 mos. ?Zero Coupon? Name sound like it pays out 200% of EFA Intl Market (MSCI EAFE) index? This investment has DECREASED in value from inception (Dec 2009) to now and ends 12/30/11, so does that mean they were making a bet that these markets would grow during this time - but lost the bet?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_product
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSCI_EAFE
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/bonds/10/structured-notes.asp#axzz1WKFDCCr3
-A take on the negatives of structured notes, of which there are quite a few.
http://etfs.morningstar.com/quote?t=EFA (for the ETF)
What are they doing? This is the trust account of a 90-year-old person, and you have structured notes (2x!) based upon the EFA (if this is a structured note that is based on 2x EFA, which is what it sounds like) and private commercial real estate?
I know the situation is such that you cannot do much in terms of taking it out of USB, but I would be very concerned (and I know you are very concerned and doing what you can to be informed/researching) with the kind of risks they are taking not only in terms of the bets themselves, but the manner (which are really VERY illiquid, I would think; if they had to sell something like the commercial real estate fund, how easy would that be - my guess, not very at all and that's if there's not any sort of "lockup" period where they can't sell. Same for the structured note, which isn't going to be liquid, either.) they are making them.
Lets say that this was not your mother's account, and lets say it was for someone who was in their 40's. The illiquid nature of these investments - I hope they don't have to sell - is still very concerning, and the esoteric nature is surprising. If the structured note is simply 2x the EAFE (and no other gimmicks or other elements, but purely 2x EAFE), then why not just use the EFO etf (which is 2x EAFE, and far more liquid)?
Board member Bob C is a financial advisor and I'd be interested in his take. Personally, I can't believe they'd be taking these bets for this sort of situation.
Couple things. I misspoke on the response re IDR CORE. I double-checked my notes which show they project a 5% type of distribution - but only 1% to 2% for the next year, then growing to 5%, plus some appreciation in time in addition to that. He did say the investments in this were liquid - 3 mos advance notice.
Also, I should have been more clear on the beneficiaries in this trust. There are 21 beneficiaries (including secondary beneficiaries). The primary beneficiary ages are in the 80s, and the secondary beneficiary ages range about low in the 50s to high 60s.
From the figures I have been able to obtain, this Portfolio appears to have average annual gain of less than 2% annually over the last 10 years (taking into account annual distributions). I know the stock market has been awful this last decade, but it seems to me that a more protective portfolio considering the general ages of the beneficiaries should have been revised at least a decade ago, especially considering even a high quality bond fund like TGLMX seems to have strongly outperformed 3, 5 and 10 year performance of this Trust. I know bond funds had a good decade, especially over stocks, but in checking one of my very conservative portfolios (with 10% or less equities) that contains a diversified mix of bond funds, did the same or better than even TGLMX over these periods (even though I didn't actually own them for that length of time).