Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.

    Support MFO

  • Donate through PayPal

Recommendations for new fund house?

24

Comments

  • Hank IMHO, most of these fund families are available ntf and no load, on at least one of the following brokerages:Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard or E-Trade.
  • edited May 2021
    carew388 said:

    Hank IMHO, most of these fund families are available ntf and no load, on at least one of the following brokerages:Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard or E-Trade.

    Thanks. I didn’t know that.

    FWIW - The 4 houses where I have funds provide plenty of good investment options and competitive fees. Not unhappy with the investments. Price in particular has a lot of good funds. Gripe was with the service end. While rarely needed, you like for someone with the knowledge and authority to help you to be there when needed.

    Certainly sounds like Fido and Schwab have an edge in that department from all the positive comments.
  • dsuttr said:

    baron list is bogus! out of fifty top brokerage houses, no listing at all for the very best: charles schwab!
    [...] baron's list should not be considered for guidance.

    >> Barrons List of 50 Best Mutual Fund Families in 2020 (From February, 2021)

    As a mutual fund family, Schwab is no better than mediocre, with exactly half of its 60 funds rated 3 star, It's got just one five star fund along with 15 four star funds; at least that's slightly better than its dozen 2 star funds. (In case you're counting, two of its funds are too new to have star ratings.)

    Though if you really want to know why Schwab wasn't even in the running, it's because it offers no actively managed taxable bond funds. Which means that it doesn't offer a full suite of funds. For similar reasons (e.g. no muni bond fund), D&C isn't on the list either.
  • @hank, you are getting great advice here from everyone on new brokerages. Products, services (online, office) and your specific needs are the key as a customer. Brokerages continue to evolve for the better or worse over time. As pointed out here this pandemic brings out the brokerage's shortcomings.

    Like Mark and several people here we have been with Fidelity for many years and they meet our need very well. We kept Vanguard since they were our former 401(k) administrator and we have several closed Vanguard funds and instutional shares of index funds. Service is sufficient for us since we do most of the transactions online. We moved away from TRP for the same reasons you are, but several years earlier. They really dropped the ball on phone support whereas Fidelity has done a good job. TRP funds are now available on NTF platform at Vanguard and Fidelity. We transferred all TRP funds out as "in-kind" transfer and life is good.
  • dsuttr said:

    baron list is bogus! out of fifty top brokerage houses, no listing at all for the very best: charles schwab!
    do you know how you become best doc in NJ. you buy the plaque each year. failure to purchase and you are delisted next year.
    us news and world reports lists the best colleges in america. one of the top five is REED in portland oregon. they are listed as 60th. why? simple, no payola. baron's list should not be considered for guidance.

    There’s some confusion here: this is a list of the fifty top Mutual Fund Families, not top brokerage houses.

    Barron’s has a separate list of the Best Online Brokers: Schwab got a 4/5 score and placed fifth.

  • edited May 2021
    @hank, @dsuttr, there is certainly a disconnect here as to if hank want's a Mutual Fund house or an On-line Brokerage that would deal with a super market of funds along with many banking options - or a company that has both. I assumed this post was to find an on-line brokerage but the list supplied by hank appears to be for who has the best selection of there own mutual funds and may or not be a brokerage house, like Fidelity for instance. TRP happens to be both also. It's a brokerage with many of it's own funds being top-notch.

    FWIW, I actually still have an older 401k with TRP that happens to be tied to my Schwab brokerage. I make all buys, sells and use reference material within my Schwab account. This was actually set up by TRP to use Schwab for the brokerage function.
  • edited May 2021
    MikeM - Thanks for weighing in.

    The “disconnect” is in my brain. My question assumed there were still plenty of conventional and competitive fund houses similar to Price from which to choose. From the discussion it seems the whole universe is moving to brokerages..

    Why? I suspect it’s more cost effective for a firm like Fidelity to staff just one support team geared to the brokerage type customer rather than two distinct teams. Might even be a reason TRP’s once stellar mutual fund support team has been allowed to slide. They too offer a brokerage feature. I suspect they’d not be unhappy if their mutual fund customers shifted to their brokerage.

    This has been an education. As I think @MikeM correctly guessed, I’m more comfortable with traditional fund / fund houses based on 50+ years of doing it that way.

    BTW- Anybody remember a time they phoned Price’s mutual fund support team and weren’t greeted with the following message: “We are experiencing higher than normal call volume. Your wait time may be longer …” (followed by some crappy music)? Logically and mathematically, it would seem impossible for something to remain “higher than normal” indefinitely.

  • "BTW- Anybody remember a time they phoned Price’s mutual fund support team and weren’t greeted with the following message: “We are experiencing higher than normal call volume. Your wait time may be longer …” (followed by some crappy music)? Logically and mathematically, it would seem impossible for something to remain “higher than normal” indefinitely."
    *************************
    TOTALLY true! But it's become "boilerplate." Why? Because "customer service" became a bad joke YEARS ago. DECADES ago--- just as soon as it became possible to keep you on HOLD forever. And a new feature--- presented as a convenience: "if you want us to call you back (instead of waiting on HOLD,) press 4 now. OK, NOW, punch-in your phone number. Screw that. You make me an offer, then I have to do the work? Shit, that's like self-check-out at the supermarket.

    To say nothing of "customer service" provided by someone who is not even close to proficient in English. (I should apologize for needing English? I think not.)

  • schwab has the best MUTUAL FUND in america.
    it is SWPPX ( S&P 500) and it has cost factor of 0.02%
    vanguard, everyones favorite though not mine, offers Admiral shares VFIAX (S&P 500) at a cost factor DOUBLE schwab 0.04%. tell me now that schwab isn't better in brokerage or mutual funds.
  • edited May 2021
    @Crash
    Sadly, you've not had a proper or positive experience, as with being a client of Fidelity.
  • dsuttr said:

    schwab has the best MUTUAL FUND in america.
    it is SWPPX ( S&P 500) and it has cost factor of 0.02%
    vanguard, everyones favorite though not mine, offers Admiral shares VFIAX (S&P 500) at a cost factor DOUBLE schwab 0.04%. tell me now that schwab isn't better in brokerage or mutual funds.

    SWPPX has a higher Tax Cost Ratio.

  • mona, you prove my point. yes schwab has a higher tax cosst ratio.
    SWPPX has a yield of 1.62%
    VFIAX amiral has yield of 1.4 %
    which would you prefer?
  • msf
    edited May 2021
    With comparable returns (both funds returned the identical 43.21% over the past year ending 5/21/21, and were within 1 basis point annualized over the past three and five years), I'd prefer the one that didn't impose a tax drag on my returns.

    Sure Schwab's TTM yield is higher. The fund recognizes and distributes capital gains. This is a good thing?

    SWPPX has been continually distributing capital gains, sometimes even short term gains, year after year after year. Though it did manage to break its streak last year.
    2015: 32.45¢ LTG
    2016: 18.05¢ LTG + 1.13¢ STG
    2017: 1.66¢ STG
    2018: 6.97¢ LTG + 0.87¢ STG
    2019, 8.91¢ LTG

    VFIAX hasn't had a cap gains distribution this century. Admittedly it has an advantage because the fund has an ETF share class that enables the fund to spin off cap gains. But isn't that the point, that it has an advantage?

    As article after article has stated, there's more to "best" or even "cheapest" than stated ER.

    In terms of raw performance, there's a MUTUAL FUND that SWPPX has been unable to beat in even a single calendar year over the past decade. Even though that fund has "a cost factor DOUBLE schwab 0.04%". It's VINIX. A Vanguard fund.

    M* ratings are a measure of risk adjusted performance within a category of funds. SWPPX gets four stars. Rarely do index funds get five stars, so that rating isn't surprising. But it does make one wonder about whether it really is "the best". Especially since there are other index funds in its category that have five star ratings, like VFIAX and VINIX.

    Schwab is a boutique fund house. It's got a slew of target date funds and index funds, but sizeable holes elsewhere. No government bond funds, no mortgage funds, no core plus, no taxable high yield. On the equity side, no growth funds, foreign or domestic, aside from a pair of domestic large cap growth funds. This is just the basic stuff, the minimum one would expect to find at a one-stop shop.

    Schwab is a great brokerage. And I'll continue to laud it. But as a fund house, it's far from top tier. Some of us still remember its Yield Plus fund. Maybe that's why it no longer offers an ultrashort term bond fund.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lessons-from-schwabs-yieldplus-debacle/
  • edited May 2021
    Schwab is a great brokerage. And I'll continue to laud it. But as a fund house, it's far from top tier.
    Precisely @msf. And I could not care less if Schwab mutual funds perform poor to mediocre. I don't use them in my portfolio. That's not why I chose them to hold my money. The convenience, low fees, good communication, easy to use website, a brick-and-mortar face to face connection and the fact I can buy most any fund, load-waved and no-transfer fee (including TRP funds), is why I moved my money there. I believe Fidelity would have given me the same wants and needs. It was a toss of the coin for me back in 2014 when I moved my 401k since Schwab and Fidelity both have a physical location by me.

    Again, when I first saw this post I assumed hank was looking for a new "brokerage", only because wanting a specific fund house for their funds didn't occur to me if you can buy the same funds at a "super market" with many more choices. Just a different thought pattern.

    We are all different. I understand and respect peoples comfort levels with either approach.
  • edited May 2021
    *** Glad folks have been able to expand the thread to address other needs or concerns.

    Personally, TRP was always the “old reliable” safe haven I could move money to when somebody else failed to meet expectations. So, my initial question is one I never expected to even ask. Waiting with baited breath for TRP to resolve any remaining account problems before taking any drastic steps.

    @MikeM - Wow. What a coherent well written testimony. to your faith in Schwab.

    Some rambling thoughts …

    - With advancing age comes a move more toward income funds and other less risky (less profitable) investments. Thus, ER becomes increasingly important. A 1-2% ER might not hurt you too much in an equity fund capable of posting double-digit years. But in a GNMA or short term bond fund anything north of 0.5% is a severe hit to your return. While TRP isn’t best in class, fees have been coming down. When you throw in their exemplary research capability you might even argue many of their fees are a bargain.

    - I’ve never liked moving significant amounts of money between custodians. If it’s going from / to cash or moderate income funds … no foul. But moving money that’s committed to more volatile investments entails the risk of a drastic market move while the money is being transmitted. Envision being essentially in cash as your money makes its way from the old to the new custodian … and the asset class your moving jumps 5-10% over the few days it’s in transit. In that case you end up buying in at a premium and missing out on the gain. If you like roulette wheels, maybe it’s not bothersome to you because there’s a roughly “even” chance the market will drop during that time and you’ll come out a winner. (I don’t like roulette wheels.)

    - Admittedly, you can try to pre-position assets so most of the transfers end up being in cash. But, it’s a hassle involving numerous transfers at both custodians if you’re moving a diversified portfolio of funds.

    - The early redemption fees at Schwab and Fido bother me. I suppose folks might criticize me for sometimes buying and selling a fund within 60 days … but I’m not here to defend my approach or teach others how they should invest. Different strokes … The 30-day limitation for in-house funds is perfectly reasonable - roughly what TRP insists on. Picking up new investments (ie Fido funds) entails a learning curve, making some mistakes in the process. I think I can say with confidence that 3 of 4 current TRP funds did not exist when I signed on with them in 1995. So I’ve had a chance to become familiar with most of their offerings one or two at a time. Rather daunting is the thought of having to learn about an entirely new stable of funds (assuming one wants to avoid the early redemption issue involving NTF purchased funds).

  • edited May 2021
    @MikeM - Wow. What a coherent well written testimony to your faith in Schwab.
    :) I don't think "faith" is a word I would use @hank, though you have to have some faith in any custodian of your money. But not blind faith, nah. Just saying they check everything on my list of wants and needs to-date. And as I stated before, we all have a different check-list of needs and concerns. Sounds like TRP checks most or all your boxes.

    Just a thought on early redemption. I keep and hold funds I like and fit my portfolio, but use ETFs if and when I want to over-weight a category or sector. If it's a bad bet and I wish to get out I can do that easily. For example, I hold 2 small cap mutual funds, QRSVX and ARTSX, but when I wanted to add weight to SC value at the start of the year I used an ETF, VBR. I still hold it. No concern for redemption fees or any fees actually with ETFs. They trade commission free.

    Just some ramblings...
  • +1 MikeM I'm gradually moving the bulk of my investments to ETFs and using mutual funds for alternative fund investments.
  • edited May 2021
    @MikeM - I’m rescinding the word “faith.” Prior statement amended to read:

    “Wow. What a coherent and well written testimony. :)
  • To all- this is one of the best threads I've seen on MFO in quite a while- informative, well mannered, offering a wealth of information, perspectives, experience and opinions- all with respect for other opinions and plain good civility. Incredibly well done- thanks to every one of you!
  • @hank. A thread from Bogleheads.org that might add value.

    https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=349493

  • I am glad to hear of the TRP issues as I was thinking of moving some of their funds I own at Fidelity to TRP directly.

    I have had accounts at Schwab, Fidelity and Vanguard for years and can offer the following

    Vanguard is clunky, irritating and putting up more and more restrictions on nonV funds. Major advantage is only place I know of to get Admiral funds. Best used for only Vanguard funds. No dedicated personal rep, rather now a "team", unless you pay for advisor. Occasionally there are funds here I can't get anywhere else. Still have my wife's money in mutual fund account, rather than brokerage. Lot's of complaints in Vanguard Advisor news letter about back office service, mistakes in accounting etc.

    Schwab has good list of most funds, lots of Load funds without load, but $25 more expensive as noted than Fido for fees. Good customer service, can get a single rep if you want who will call you occasionally to see if he/she "can help". Web site not as easy to navigate as FIDO

    Fido has better graphs and data on positions and an easiest website. Very easy transfers from other brokerages, all done electronically. Have never used their personal reps, although they pester us all the time to "sign up".

    I don't like to have all my assets in one basket, but if I had to pick one would go with Fido, with Schwab close second.

    I was always a little leery about having to use a private firm ( Fidelity) that did not have to report their finances to the public. I am not sure if this is still a big issue, as Fido has massive amounts of retirement accounts and these folks probably watch things pretty carefully. However, you will not be told if there are problems, if you do not participate in a massive 401k ( My wife got stuck in a busted 401k years ago). Vanguard is just as opaque, as their mantra of " the fund investors own the firm" is window dressing only as fund investors do not get to elect the board or vote on salaries etc.
  • Thanks for the summation @sma3. It seems to me Schwab added some new tools & or features recently.
    Derf
  • edited May 2021
    Have never used their personal reps, although they pester us all the time to "sign up".

    Don’t want to extrapolate too much from that comment. But when I called Fidelity strictly to inquire about the mechanics of transferring assets, the fella did seem a bit overly inquisitive. Regarding my TOD account, which is 100% in municipal bond funds, he wondered: “how’d that money get there?”

    Shucks - I put it there.:)

    Thanks @Mona. Yes, that linked Boggleheads thread is interesting.
  • For Fidelity I use their online chat. For example, how to perform asset transfer from another brokerage to Fidelity? They will provide step by step instruction. This support is quick and seems to be 24/7, unlike a live representative. This way I don’t have to deal with their uninvited advisory services. Fidelity have a number of offices in Oregon and they always to be your friends.

    Vanguard is more clunky but you can their search engine to find the process and forms. All transfers are done online plus the paper copy must send in.

    @mona’s reference is helpful to see the diverse needs of individual investors.
  • hank ISTR that Fidelity doesn't allow the purchase of municipal bond funds in traditional or roth iras. In fact, my purchase of FSTFX for both my ira accounts was just denied by Fidelity !
  • msf
    edited May 2021
    Lots of semi-random comments:

    Hank's The [Fidelity] 30-day limitation for in-house funds is perfectly reasonable - roughly what TRP insists on.

    This reflects each fund house's excessive trading policy - something similar to but different from short term redemption fees. A key difference is that redemption fees are "just" money. Excessive trading rules can lock you out of trading. No Fidelity fund has a short term fee, and I believe the same is true for TRP funds.

    TRP's policy can be found in each fund's statutory prospectus. It bars you from buying shares in a fund account if you sold shares from that account within 30 days. Notice the time constraint is on sell followed by purchase. All you need are two transactions (sell followed by buy) to trigger a restriction. Vanguard has a similar policy.

    Fidelity's policy is more complex. It defines a short term round trip as a buy followed by a sell within 30 days. The policy begins to take effect only if you execute two round trips within 90 days of each other.

    This seems somewhat less restrictive: you're allowed to buy/sell/buy in any time frame with no consequences. It's only the second short term (30 day) sell that triggers a freeze. But if triggered, it lasts longer than at TRP; at Fidelity the bar against purchases lasts 85 days and you're placed on a watch list.
    Fidelity's Excessive Trading Policy and 2020 Update

    In Mona's boglehead's link, the OP writes: HSA w/ company which im maxing out and investing it in Vanguard Real Estate Fund.

    There's no response to this part of the post, but Fidelity offers the cheapest, broadest HSA around (it's a regular brokerage account). Many employer HSAs have fees or restrictions attached. What one can do is contribute to the employer's HSA (to get added employee tax benefits and match) and then transfer the money to an external (Fidelity) HSA. One can even buy a share class of Vanguard Real Estate Fund VNQ with no commission in a Fidelity HSA.

    I agree with much of what sma3 wrote (also having had accounts at Vanguard, Fidelity, and Schwab for years). Though here are some items that reasonable people can view differently:

    Vanguard is clunky
    Likely true for many operations; I find it easy to use for the only thing I care about there: buying and selling mutual funds

    Fidelity has ... an easy website
    Yes, but the more they change it to look like their small screen ap, the worse it gets. Fidelity recently changed its bill payment interface so now I have to go through multiple screens to accomplish what used to be easier. And I can no longer give it a list of payees to display by default; it always starts with every one I've left in the system.

    Vanguard is ... putting up more and more restrictions on nonV funds
    It doesn't let you buy or sell leveraged/inverse ETFs. OTOH, to buy aggressive funds like PQTAX, Fidelity requires you to sign an agreement and set your account investment objective to most aggressive, while Vanguard just puts up a dialog box informing you that you should be aware of the risks.

    A few years ago, Schwab stopped selling load funds (unless they were sold load-waived). I believe Vanguard has a similar policy. Fidelity still sells funds with loads. The way this may play out is that, e.g. for NMFAX, Fidelity will sell the A shares with a load, Schwab will have arranged for them to be sold NTF, and Vanguard won't sell them.
  • carew388 said:

    hank ISTR that Fidelity doesn't allow the purchase of municipal bond funds in traditional or roth iras. In fact, my purchase of FSTFX for both my ira accounts was just denied by Fidelity !

    Give them a call. They'll put the trades through. I've asked.

  • edited May 2021
    msf said:

    carew388 said:

    hank ISTR that Fidelity doesn't allow the purchase of municipal bond funds in traditional or roth iras. In fact, my purchase of FSTFX for both my ira accounts was just denied by Fidelity !

    Give them a call. They'll put the trades through. I've asked.

    ...Hmmmmm. i've been mostly listening and learning on this thread. But if a trade is disallowed until you speak to someone personally, that just tells me that the outfit has their heads up their asses, no? So, why would I want to use them at all? I can never tell if THEY know what they're doing. And they are the ones presuming to take my money and use it?????
    ****************
    Also: I have my credit union account tied to my as-yet unfunded TRP brokerage account. I recall getting emails from the lovely geniuses in their Marketing Dept. telling me of the smooth ease of trading in mutual funds , using my new brokerage acct. ..... But I opened that account specifically to buy/sell individual stocks online with no fee. ...When I called to express that, the agent said: "Oh, yes, we meant THAT, too."

    "But I see nothing on that webpage after signing-in which communicates that fact."

    ....You have to click on that button on the right-hand side and it appears, there."

    Gee, thanks.
    This gives me the same disheartening feeling that I get when trying to navigate Honolulu, or trying to find a particular address over there: you already have to know where you're going. THAT will solve the problem. ORK!!!!!!

  • edited May 2021
    carew388 said:

    “ISTR that Fidelity doesn't allow the purchase of municipal bond funds in traditional or roth iras. In fact, my purchase of FSTFX for both my ira accounts was just denied by Fidelity !”

    Don’t like the sound of that last sentence (though I practice denial all the time).:)

    “TOD” (Transfer on Death) is the code TRP uses for non-retirement accounts. I wondered about that myself years ago when I began making deposits from my bank account into one of their cash equivalent funds. Some of the money in the TOD account more recently came from RMD money that wasn’t needed at the time. I like PRIHX (despite rather low ratings) and have been building the balance in that TOD account as an adjunct to other retirement savings.
  • edited May 2021
    (From the Fidelity document @msf linked): “Trades for $1,000 or less (are exempt from the trading block). (Please note that if more than one buy order or sell order for a given fund is executed on the same day in the same account, the $1,000 threshold is based on the total dollar value of all orders for that fund.)”

    - Gets confusing, but (regarding the above) I wonder if one could do several identical $1,000 transactions, one-day apart without running amuck of their rules? Maybe there’s a “gottcha” somewhere else in their rule book.

    - Like most other fund providers, Fidelity exempts money market funds from the excessive trading restrictions.

    - Thanks @msf for clarifying the TRP policy. I guess I was just trying to generalize whereas specificity is needed.

    - Am old enough to remember when TRP had a 90-day “round trip” rule as well - though not sure how similar to Fido’s it was. Price quietly dropped that when they adapted the 30-day block msf referenced.

    - Price also more recently dropped its early redemption fee on many of their funds. ISTM that 2% of the amount sold early was pretty typical. On a $2500 sale 2% = $50. So, it’s hard to characterize Fido’s $49.95 fee on NTF funds sold early as price gouging. If anything, it sounds more forgiving than the old Price policy was. (But with Fido, the NTF fund itself may have additional redemption fees.)

    “Fidelity has ... an easy website … but the more they change it to look like their small screen ap, the worse it gets. Fidelity recently changed its bill payment interface so now I have to go through multiple screens to accomplish what used to be easier.”

    - Re the above, I’m thinking Fidelity’s website / tech changes may eventually confuse its reps to the point they’re as “lost” in the process as TRP’s now appear. :)
Sign In or Register to comment.