Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Here's a statement of the obvious: The opinions expressed here are those of the participants, not those of the Mutual Fund Observer. We cannot vouch for the accuracy or appropriateness of any of it, though we do encourage civility and good humor.

    Support MFO

  • Donate through PayPal

*

135678

Comments

  • Bobpa: "Any opinion on LALDX or HOBEX? Thank you for all your input."
  • Bobpa: "Any opinion on LALDX or HOBEX? Thank you for all your input." .

    Bobpa, I owned LALDX for years through an employment retirement menu--I considered it a good, relatively low risk, fund, with a large AUM (likely due to its being marketed through company retirement plans). I think Lord Abbot is somewhat more aggressive in their asset management approach for this fund, compared to funds like DBLSX and DHEIX. I think it can be a good fund for ballast portfolio roles, and for a conservative bond oef investor, it looks like a very viable option.

    Regarding HOBEX, it is a relatively new fund (about 3 years old), generally looks to be a High Risk/High Return fund for its category. Focuses heavily on Corporate bonds, and with a bit higher volatility than most of its peers. I don't like its very high Expense Ratio (1.81) and I don't care for a relatively steep peak to trough loss in 2018 for this category of funds. It would not fit my criteria for investing, but certainly has had a high return for its category in its 3 year existence. It is not a fund I follow, not a company I am familiar with, so I personally would be careful with what I know.
  • Thank you for your response.
  • dtconroe said:

    davidrmoran: "What are good competitors to MINT? I could stand more volatility for better return ..."

    ... in my post above, you might find some interesting bond oef funds to consider. At Schwab, I use their SWVXX fund as Money Market alternative to bank accounts.

    yes, tyvm, and welcome; am seeking something more readily tradable (without penalty or problem); not sure such a thing exists
  • edited January 2020
    Found this old post by Junkster concerning HOBEX concerning MLPs in retirement accounts:

    https://mutualfundobserver.com/discuss/discussion/comment/110225/#Comment_110225
  • After digging within MFOP for cashlike ETFs, I am now studying VCSH to augment MINT, and while I say I could trade off volatility for return, I see it spent almost a year underwater (starting end summer '17), eesh. (That's just about the time when several here started mentioning the appeal of VCSH ....)

    Available Fido and ML no problem; not positive there are no restrictions on quick trading, but I believe so.

    fwiw and anyone seeking similar, my boiled-down results also included ICSH, GSY, SLQD, and LDRI.
  • I have nothing to add beyond what ETFs you have already @davidrmoran, but out of that list GSY sure looks good when plotted in Portfolio Visualizer. Very impressive Sortino ratio.
  • Great information. I'm eating it up.
  • if you can stand stretches of vol / underwater you can throw BOND and even AGG into the mix of course
  • NEAR GSY are etf alternatives for MINT . Additional open-ended funds include TRBUX and BBBMX . FPNIX and DODIX are candidates if you can buy them ntf !
  • carew388: "GSY are etf alternatives for MINT . Additional open-ended funds include TRBUX and BBBMX . FPNIX and DODIX are candidates if you can buy them ntf !"

    I will comment on the bond oefs, which are the focus of this thread. BBBMX is available NTF at Schwab. It appears that FPNIX, TRBUX, DODIX are available at Schwab but require at transaction fee. FPNIX is a very conservative short term bond oef, BBBMX and TRBUX are ultimate short term bond oefs and very conservative, DODIX is a Core Plus Intermediate bond fund which closely resembles a multisector bond fund. I would consider all these funds as pretty conservative, relatively speaking to more risky bond oef categories.
  • A slight correction to the previous post TRBUX is available NTF at Schwab. But FPNIX and DODIX still have transaction fees and I haven't seen any indications that the tf will be removed.
  • I went back and double checked, and I did discover TRBUX is NTF and is also on Schwab's list of "Select Funds"--it is an ultrashort term bond fund, so it is one of the lower risk but lower TR funds on the list. DODIX is the most risky of the funds noted above, being in the Core Plus Intermediate Bond category. FPNIX has always been on of the lower risk, but lower TR funds in its category. Seems each investor would need to be sure what role they are wanting each of the funds to fill in their portfolio.
  • I have been making a few end of year/beginning of new year portfolio adjustments in my taxable account. I did sell BTMIX--a very good short term, investment grade, municipal bond oef, and I have added AAHMX, a very low risk HY short duration Muni Bond oef. I expect to increase my TR with minimal increased risk, but time will tell how that will play out. I am still considering adding NVHAX from the HY Muni category, but its peak to trough loss in the 2015/2016 period, causes me some pause about this fund, so if I do add it, it would likely be a relatively small portfolio addition. I also sold DBLSX, and I decided to increase my holding in SEMMX--very different kinds of funds, but I think the SEMMX long term history of very consistent TR around 5% with very low SD/volatility is worth the risk.

    In my IRA account, I have chosen to take some cash I have built up and distribute it to PIMIX, VCFAX, and IISIX positions I already own.
  • carew388 said:

    A slight correction to the previous post TRBUX is available NTF at Schwab. But FPNIX and DODIX still have transaction fees and I haven't seen any indications that the tf will be removed.

    As an owner of DODIX, I hope it never has the TF removed. Participating in NTF marketplaces would require D&C to pay a fee to the brokers. By not participating, D&C can keep its ER’s relatively low by not having to pass on the fee to its mutual fund owners.
  • edited January 2020
    dtconroe, I did purchase NVHAX with proceeds from an equity fund that had doubled. This is in my taxable account so I wanted to get some muni exposure and protect my profit. I was considering BTMIX but decided to go a little more aggressive. I read the your objection to the 2015 drawdown. But I have decided to pick funds with good potential and stick with them for a period long enough to prove me wrong. I will not need that money for a few years for monthly spending. I will review the performance at end of this year to see if it makes the grade for next year.
  • "Gary1952">dtconroe, I did purchase NVHAX with proceeds from an equity fund that had doubled. This is in my taxable account so I wanted to get some muni exposure and protect my profit. I was considering BTMIX but decided to go a little more aggressive. I read the your objection to the 2015 drawdown. But I have decided to pick funds with good potential and stick with them for a period long enough to prove me wrong. I will not need that money for a few years for monthly spending. I will review the performance at end of this year to see if it makes the grade for next year.

    Hey Gary, I understand your reasoning. NVHAX performance since 2015/2016 is excellent. Hope it works out well for you.

  • I have completed making portfolio adjustments in my retirement portfolio for end of 2019 and beginning of 2020. I attempt to look at funds I am most likely to be able to hold for all of 2020--I don't like to buy and sell frequently, am not good at timing, and prefer funds with a smoother performance pattern and strong downside performance history. Trying to make some adjustments in my Traditional IRA account consumed my most recent considerations. I looked closely at JMSIX, PUCZX, and JMUTX as potential new multisector bond funds to my portfolio--they had excellent performance in 2019, but I ultimately chose to just increase the amount I hold in some existing funds such as VCFAX, PIMIX, IISIX, and SEMMX. These existing funds have lower volatility/standard deviation, and I am more likely to continue holding them in a calendar year, which I suspect may have some challenges with the elections and some global tensions. In short, I wanted to maintain some holdings that look like to have good defensive performance characteristics. I am more focused on preservation of principal, than chasing the performance of recent hot funds.

    Best wishes on making choices you feel good about for 2020!

  • There seems to be a few threads and increased interest in Munis recently. I have always found this category more impacted by seasonal trends than most bond oefs. Here is an article that highlights that seasonality:

    The Four Seasons of Muni Bond Investing
    FEBRUARY 14, 2019 BY SAGE ADVISORY

    Timing is everything. For a municipal bond investor, annual seasonal trends can provide great entry and exit points, if executed properly. There are four distinct seasonal periods that occur annually due to structural factors inherent in the municipal bond market. If timed correctly, municipal investors can increase their probability of successfully trading these markets and reap the reward of better returns.

    The four seasonal periods that affect the municipal market on an annual basis are January Reinvestment, Tax Season, June/July Redemptions, and the Holiday Season Slowdown.

    January Reinvestment

    Although not the heaviest period of bond maturity and coupon payments, January 1st does experience an elevated level of cash that needs to be reinvested. In addition, the lingering effects of the Holiday Season Slowdown contribute to a limited amount of new issue supply, as well as diminished levels of secondary supply offered by broker/dealers. This strong technical environment tends to last anywhere from a few weeks to well into February, depending on the direction and magnitude of market flows. For investors who can time liquidity needs, January represents one of the most advantageous times of year to raise funds.

    Tax Season – late March through April

    From late March until the end of April, the municipal bond market tends to see both a reduction in demand as well as a heightened level of selling to fund tax payments. (Selling tax-exempt municipal bonds to fund personal federal and state tax liabilities remains one of life’s great mysteries.) Regardless, tax season provides an attractive entry point for investors, as limited demand and improving new issue supply tend to push valuations to more attractive levels.

    June/July Redemptions

    The heaviest period of maturing bonds and coupon payments is during these two months and represents anywhere from 40% to 60% of annual redemptions. Typically, municipal issuers come to market during this time, which offsets the demand pressure from reinvestment. Unfortunately, over the past several years, municipalities have been paying down debt and reducing debt issuance, which has created a net negative supply environment. As long as new issuance remains below the long-term averages, municipal bonds will remain supportive during June and July and provide investors an opportune time to rebalance portfolios (such as reducing credit risk).

    Holiday Season – late November through year-end

    Thanksgiving should indicate a warning sign to investors regarding optimal liquidity and ample supply. During the week of Thanksgiving, the markets may be open; however, the focus of the market is limited. The last week of November and the first two weeks of December represent the final opportunity for investors to efficiently trade before the market essentially shuts down for the year. Junior traders and reduced staff remain the norm during the last two weeks of the year. Market making and risk taking are severely restricted and a noticeable liquidity premium on bonds is apparent. Fortunately, for those investors looking to put cash to work, the ability to purchase bonds from forced market sells offers the opportunity to add exposure at discounted levels.
  • MrRuffles said:

    carew388 said:

    A slight correction to the previous post TRBUX is available NTF at Schwab. But FPNIX and DODIX still have transaction fees and I haven't seen any indications that the tf will be removed.

    As an owner of DODIX, I hope it never has the TF removed. Participating in NTF marketplaces would require D&C to pay a fee to the brokers. By not participating, D&C can keep its ER’s relatively low by not having to pass on the fee to its mutual fund owners.
    ...Well, yes. But someone is making a DECISION to pass along such costs to share-owners. It doesn't have to be that way. But we all just take it for granted.

  • I started this thread about a month ago in December 2019, to see if this would be viable option for investors to discuss bond oefs. What I have learned is that there are a large number of individuals who "view" the thread (3.5K), but very few who care to make a post and help the thread be an active discussion forum--about 80 total posts on the thread, many of them are mine. The way MFO works, if there is no active posting, then the thread gets buried with more recent threads, more recent posts, and the thread ultimately dies of lack of attention. If anyone wants to keep this thread alive, I would be open to ideas of what would help that happen, otherwise I will just let it fade away, with my thanks to those few who were willing to participate in making active posts.
  • +! bump this upward.
  • Crash, I appreciate your willingness to make active posts. If you have thoughts about types of posts, that might inspire lurkers/readers, to engage with comments, thoughts, questions, I would be very open to working in partnership with others to try to keep this thread from dying from lack of interest. Unfortunately, with the way MFO is designed, you almost have to make a post every day or 2, before it is buried. At M*, there were several "categories" for discussion--Bonds had their own discussion forum, along with about 20 other discussion forums. This thread has become one of the most viewed threads in the past month (3.5K views) but there have been literally about a hundred new threads, that often get no comments, but they ultimately bury more popular threads, at least from a view criteria. It takes a lot of work to just keep a thread from falling on to the 2nd or 3rd page of the most recent threads on MFO, and just getting lost and buried.
  • @dtconroe: After viewing this site for a long time I have a suggestion for you. Bookmark your last comment. When you feel like adding to link, bring the bookmark back & add to it. Hopefully I explained this okay. I've seen months go bye & a discussion brought back to life & added to.
    Thanks for your time & thoughts.
    Have a good week, Derf
    P.S. I checked to see if I
    could get back to your
    post. I entered (dtconroe)
    in the search box &
    up it came.
  • edited January 2020
    What is too conservative? I have a basic AA of 50/50. But the 50% bond OEFs have 50% (25% overall) in low duration/lower yielding "safer" type funds. The other 50% (25% overall) is in higher yielding multi/non-traditional funds. I own no "ballast" funds such as core/core plus OEFs. Is this too conservative or not conservative enough? My goal is to target 3-4% yearly income from divs, CDs and growth.

    My market correlation for 10 years is .35%. The max draw down is -.42% for the bond OEFs.

    I know it is my judgment but I am curious what others think.
  • Gary, I guess I could operationalize the definition of conservative, but I am fine with each poster/investor determining what is conservative to them, on this thread. I am probably one of the most risk averse bond oef investor, but I am always re-evaluating my risk criteria for what I can tolerate. Conservative can also be a matter of using a more risky bond oef, but using it in a relatively small percentage so that it can be managed within a conservative approach to investing. I would just hope that each poster describe their overall portfolio, and define what they are considering in their portfolio, that might meet a specific definition of conservative for them. Bottomline is that if no one wants to post regularly, then the thread is going into a relatively inactive status and provide little value to others.
  • "Gary1952">What is too conservative? I have a basic AA of 50/50. But the 50% bond OEFs have 50% (25% overall) in low duration/lower yielding "safer" type funds. The other 50% (25% overall) is in higher yielding multi/non-traditional funds. I own no "ballast" funds such as core/core plus OEFs. Is this too conservative or not conservative enough? My goal is to target 3-4% yearly income from divs, CDs and growth.

    My market correlation for 10 years is .35%. The max draw down is -.42% for the bond OEFs.

    I know it is my judgment but I am curious what others think.

    Gary, In a more specific response to your post, you and I use very similar kinds of funds, although I break my funds down into funds for my taxable account, and funds for my tax exempt (IRA) account. In my taxable account if use more of the "safer" bond oefs, but with a wide variation if diversity. So, for example, DHEAX is the short term bond fund I use, but I consider it more risky than DBLSX and less risky than FIJEX. There is an argument that you could use just one of these short term bond funds, or you could use more than one of these funds for more diversification. I use 4 very different nontraditional bond oefs in my taxable account because they are all "conservative" for me, but they don't always perform the same in a given set of market conditions. PUTIX is my most risky nontraditional bond oef, MWCIX is my least risky nontraditional bond oef. I also own a municipal bond oef which is a HY MUNI (AAHMX) and this is one of the least risky HY Munis you can own. I used it to replace BTMIX, which is a very good short term investment grade muni bond oef, but I felt I was ready to move up in risk. I have considered NVHAX, but it is more risky than AAHMX, and NHHAX has some history of significant peak to trough losses and a larger "worst 3 month performance period" than AAHMX. I am still considering adding NVHAX to my portfolio in 2020, but if I do, I will probably make it much smaller position than AAHMX. In the past I have used MMHAX as longer duration and more risky bond oef, but I am not inclined to use it right now because I am not comfortable with its risk level. I am very clear that many investors will use much more risky bond oefs in their taxable account because there are a lot of pundits thinking they will sail through 2020 in the same way they sailed through 2019--that may fit their conservative criteria, but not mine.

    When it comes to my IRA account, I use several multisector bond oefs that are more risky than what I will use in my taxable account. I rank order multisector bond oefs in roughly the following low to higher risk: ANGIX, VCFAX, PIMIX, PTIAX, JMUTX, JMSIX, PUCZX, IOFIX. All investors can make an argument for these funds being "conservative" based on the criteria they use. For me, I have chosen to only use VCFAX and PIMIX, but I don't dismiss the rationale from others to use some of these other funds. For me, I would not touch IOFIX with a 10 foot pole, but there are many others who believe this is the next great multisector bond oef.

    At any rate, it appears to me that you are using relatively conservative bond oefs, but you could very easily change your criteria for other bond oefs to fit your investing roles you have defined for each fund.
  • "Derf">@dtconroe: After viewing this site for a long time I have a suggestion for you. Bookmark your last comment. When you feel like adding to link, bring the bookmark back & add to it. Hopefully I explained this okay. I've seen months go bye & a discussion brought back to life & added to.
    Thanks for your time & thoughts.
    Have a good week, Derf
    P.S. I checked to see if I
    could get back to your
    post. I entered (dtconroe)
    in the search box &
    up it came.

    Derf, thanks for your comments. I started this thread to emulate some very successful threads on M*. On those threads, it was important for the thread to have significant "buy in" from numerous posters, so that the thread would stay vibrant and relevant on an ongoing fashion. My role on the thread is to get it started, periodically stoke it with some new posts, but help make it a safe and nonthreatening thread to stimulate a significant number of posts from a significant number of posters. On M*, bond threads did not have to compete with a large number of threads on other topics and subjects. If a poster has to go through a "search process" to find the thread, and then to enter a comment, I suspect the thread is dead. On MFO, lurkers and readers need to determine if a thread is worth investing in to keep it alive and active--after a month, I see a huge number of viewers, but relatively few posters, and under the MFO discussion format, a thread is doomed to die quickly for inattention. The verdict is out on whether enough viewers will value this thread enough to keep it alive with periodic posts.
  • I continue to read this thread with interest. My household situation is such that I can manage fine (along with wifey,) together here with extended family, though my portfolio is surely much smaller than many or most who participate here. Therefore, I have streamlined and consolidated my portfolio prior to our moving out here. Conservative bond-OEFs? Well, I actually can't afford to be too conservative. I'm happy with my TRP bond funds, along with PTIAX, which has been mentioned by several people already. My goal is to generate BETTER than plain-vanilla monthly dividends, without going overboard re: risk. I have become accustomed to what I would characterize as moderate risk; and of course, with regard to BOND funds, volatility is much less pronounced than with stocks. I have my eye on the sister-fund to PTIAX, which is the Perf. Trust Muni bond fund. I might end-up buying into that one. Wife's 403b will be directly rolled-over from VEIRX into VLAAX...And she's starting her new job here very soon. I hope there's a 401k or 403b which is not a pile of dooky. It's some sort of Nursing Home. And she tells me that employees have their medical insurance paid for by the company (?) Holy pennies from heaven, Batman! Can that be true?
  • "Crash">I continue to read this thread with interest. My household situation is such that I can manage fine (along with wifey,) together here with extended family, though my portfolio is surely much smaller than many or most who participate here. Therefore, I have streamlined and consolidated my portfolio prior to our moving out here. Conservative bond-OEFs? Well, I actually can't afford to be too conservative. I'm happy with my TRP bond funds, along with PTIAX, which has been mentioned by several people already. My goal is to generate BETTER than plain-vanilla monthly dividends, without going overboard re: risk. I have become accustomed to what I would characterize as moderate risk; and of course, with regard to BOND funds, volatility is much less pronounced than with stocks. I have my eye on the sister-fund to PTIAX, which is the Perf. Trust Muni bond fund. I might end-up buying into that one. Wife's 403b will be directly rolled-over from VEIRX into VLAAX...And she's starting her new job here very soon. I hope there's a 401k or 403b which is not a pile of dooky. It's some sort of Nursing Home. And she tells me that employees have their medical insurance paid for by the company (?) Holy pennies from heaven, Batman! Can that be true?

    Crash, that is interesting and sounds like you have established some strong conviction for what you are interested in. What is "conservative" for one investor, could be "risky" for another investor--it is all in understanding your own risk tolerance. My wife has a relatively small amount in her Traditional IRA account, and about 50% of our joint taxable account comes from her inheritance from her deceased parents. Her desires is to be much less risky than funds I put into a relatively broad conservative category. She would prefer CDs and short term bond funds as her investments of choice. Over time, I have shown her visually on performance charts how her desired short term bond funds look like compared to slightly more risky bond categories such as nontraditional bond funds. Now in her Traditional IRA account, she is comfortable with MWCIX and IISIX for an account of about $100K. In our joint taxable account, we own several of the lower risk bond oefs that she is comfortable with (funds like DHEAX), but about half of the joint taxable account consist of funds that fit my risk level (funds like SEMMX and PUTIX). You just have to develop your portfolio to fit you needs and investment style, and believe in the criteria you used to select them.


Sign In or Register to comment.